To bid or not to bid

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sqxhqdkqxxxcaxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♥-p-p

????[/hv]

 

Where are the Spades? :( Where are the points? :D Bid or double or pass? :)

[jdeegan]

Where are the Spades? :(  Where are the points? :(  Bid or double or pass? :D

:) Where are the hearts for that matter? The only reason I see to double is to cater to a penalty pass by partner. So the auction goes dbl-pass-pass-pass, and one heart doubled goes down a lot and we get a good score??? Does this look likely to you?? Not to me.

 

So, if I'm not to double, should I pass or bid 2♣?? I dunno what's going on, but 2♣ looks better.

 

At the table, I would pause for a moment and be paying serious attention to LHO's table vibes (if any) since, one possibility is that LHO has bid 1♥ with a super heavy hand and very badly wants me to reopen.

[mike777]

X=easy

[whereagles]

Pard would have bid 1S with a 55 in the majors. Pass.

[Guest Jlall]

X for me. If the auction went 1D 1H X(penalty) I would certainly pass. Partner cannot bury me in spades since he couldnt make a neg X. He can only have a good hand with spades if hes trap passing

[temp3600]

We can have a game, so i don't pass. 2♣ gives up on punishing the opponents ; i prefer double.

 

I have a question of my own. Suppose the bidding goes :

1♦  (1♥)      pass     (pass)

X    (pass)  1♠/1NT  (pass)

?

 

Does 2♣ now promise extras, or simply a hand that wanted to cater to partner having a penalty double of ♥ and cannot stand ♠ ? Would you jump to 3♣ with a strong hands with minors ? (maybe 2♣ is enough then, even with a strong hand)

[mike777]

We can have a game, so i don't pass. 2♣ gives up on punishing the opponents ; i prefer double.

 

I have a question of my own. Suppose the bidding goes :

1♦  (1♥)      pass     (pass)

X    (pass)  1♠/1NT  (pass)

?

 

Does 2♣ now promise extras, or simply a hand that wanted to cater to partner having a penalty double of ♥ and cannot stand ♠ ? Would you jump to 3♣ with a strong hands with minors ? (maybe 2♣ is enough then, even with a strong hand)

If partner bids 1s or 1nt, they have nothing repeat nothing. 2C is more than enough.

[Guest Jlall]

I play Xing then correcting to 2C shows a hand like this

[zasanya]

1)11 ♠ missing.Generally would divide 4-4-3 so ops may have more than us .If P has 4♠ no♥ and some points he would bid somethin so 4 types of hands with P.

a)few ♠ some ♥ and few points

b)length in♠ and ♥ few points

c)Some points and minors

d)length in♠ and hand which has penalty dbl of ♥ which means points and ♥

2)I have 13 lho has at least 12 .Therefore 15 points missing.Rho has less than 5.

So partner and lho account for at least 11.So two possibilities.

a)P has few points and rho has lots

b ) P has majority of missing points and penalty double of ♥

3)Out of the the above 6 possibilities dbl is desirable if P has penalty double type of hand. Even if he doesnt have we can compete in minors.

So dbl.

[Double !]

I would re-open with a 2C bid albeit not without acknowledging the risk of giving lho a second chance with a very good hand.

There are at least 4 dogs that didn't bark so far during the bidding. 1) partner did not raise or make a negative double. 2) partner did not respond 1 (or 2) spade(s). 3) partner did not bid a competitive 1NT/ 1 heart, nor did he bid 2C. 4) rho passed: rho didn't show hearts support, decent spades, etc. etc. So, what is left for P to have, and what does this imply about lho's hand? Answer this question and you are now trusting the opps bidding. So, instead of looking for some large penalty when P has a heart stack and spades, and the opps have nowhere to run, I will be naive and show my second suit. At least this will give partner some idea of what I have and what action to take should lho bid some more. Is this the expert bid? Probably not. But it is pragmatic in terms of hand description. If P has a major 2-suiter and didn't show spades, well, P & I will discuss that later.

[Free]

Dbl, what else?

[Winstonm]

As usual I'm all alone out here in left field hoping someone will hit the ball my way, LoL.

 

I developed a concept in cooperation with my partner that a penalty trap pass should not be based on hand that would likely produce game opposite a minimum 12-count type opener. If that hand is held, we basically ignore trying to punish the opponents and bid our own game.

 

This helps enormously in close decisions as without a good hand or good reason the pressure is off to reopen with a double as in theory it is only a partscore hand -nice to double them for a number but not a tragedy if you don't.

 

With that agreement, I can comfortably pass this hand knowing we are extrememly unlikely to be missing anything our way and for the most part at imps a plus is a plus is a plus at partscores. If partner is not trap passing, I don't risk balancing them back into game - which is a lot worse than letting them play undoubled on a partscore hand.

 

Winston

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=s=sjxxhk9xxxdxckqxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

I was too chicken to either dbl or rebid 2C, so passed for a poor result. (1H making 2 while it should make 1 and we have 3C easy.) I think that while 1NT was the value bid, I take 90% of the blame on this one.

[whereagles]

I must confess I would have doubled with that hand. I was much more expecting something like

 

Txx

Kxxxx

xx

Qxx

[Double !]

Observation from the non-expert peanut gallery.

 

Why didn't partner compete with 1NT over the 1H overcall (admittedly a little off-shape)? Looking for the big number? What partner succeeded in doing was to fail to inform of reasonable values and, consequently, put unnecessary pressure on opener to try to assess how to proceed. Perhaps that's the expert way to bid the hand, but I disagree. I believe in letting partner know as soon as possible when and approximately what kind of values I have in competitive situations. Interestingly, I suspect that a 1NT response by partner would have made it less likely that lho might compete further unless holding a very good hand.

[mike777]

Observation from the non-expert peanut gallery.

 

Why didn't partner compete with 1NT over the 1H overcall (admittedly a little off-shape)? Looking for the big number? What partner succeeded in doing was to fail to inform of reasonable values and, consequently, put unnecessary pressure on opener to try to assess how to proceed. Perhaps that's the expert way to bid the hand, but I disagree. I believe in letting partner know as soon as possible when and approximately what kind of values I have in competitive situations. Interestingly, I suspect that a 1NT response by partner would have made it less likely that lho might compete further unless holding a very good hand.

Agree with the peanut gallery, NUTS! 1nt seems easy and clear over 1H :rolleyes:.

 

As usual it was partner who had the real forum problem hand :).

[pclayton]

I agree with a pass.

 

1 - Where are the points? Not with us!

2 - Where are the spades? Also not with us.

 

Pard might be trapping with a heart hand, in which case I'm happy to play 1♥ at 50 a trick. If pard doesn't have hearts, they could have a big 6-2 heart fit with a 17 opposite an 8, a 4-4 spade fit thats undisclosed, or a misfit, in which case 2♣ won't fare too well.

 

With pard's hand I would either bid 1N or make a neg x (denying 4♠). Pass would not occur to me.

[Al_U_Card]

So then, say pard bids 1NT, I would tend to bid 2C to make sure that we go plus, but there is a temptation to pass and try for 120 at MP. What say you?

[dogsbreath]

ok i'm the one 'other' :unsure:

 

I'm not passing, my p doesnt have 5 spades and a moderate hand and i dont want to defend 1Hx ..so I re-open with 1nt. Will run to Clubs if i get tickled.

 

Rgds Dog

[Al_U_Card]

ok i'm the one 'other' :)

 

I'm not passing, my p doesnt have 5 spades and a moderate hand and i dont want to defend 1Hx ..so I re-open with 1nt. Will run to Clubs if i get tickled.

 

Rgds Dog

Now that's a matchpoint bid! :)

[pclayton]

Dog - as well as 1N might play, it generally shows 18-19 and a balanced hand.

 

Perhaps not the best description of this mealy 5-5.

[dogsbreath]

hi

i suggest that 1nt IN THIS POSITION does not show strong balanced, unless you have agreed such.

I believe this IS a weak-balance position, as compared to 1D-P-P1H-? when, i agree, 1nt better be good.

Rgds

Dog

[flytoox]

I am a passer. Dbl is wrong in shape, and I dont expect pd holds a heart stack when I have the heart queen. If I bid 2C, opp will find their spade partscore, or even a game.

[Al_U_Card]

I am a passer. Dbl is wrong in shape, and I dont expect pd holds a heart stack when I have the heart queen. If I bid 2C, opp will find their spade partscore, or even a game.

My thoughts exactly so a 1NT value response by pard gets us to a playable spot whether i pass or bid 2C......

[Double !]

This thread touches on an important issue IMO. You have to base your decisions on the assumption that Partner has made a reasonable bid. Otherwise, you are just taking an educated guess (how educated will vary from person to person) about hands that you haven't seen. Many were concerned about bidding again out of concern that the opps would find a spade fit, and perhap get to game even when lho didn't start with a double, and rho passed the overcall. With a good 4-6 in majors, lho might dbl'd first: yes/no? The problem occurred because partner didn't show values, so the logical assumption was made that P either didn't have values, or that P had values with a misfit. I'm not good enough to accurately reconstruct my P's hand and the opps hands when two of those hands have passed (when one should have bid). If there is a good way of doing so, I certainly would like to learn it.