whereagles Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 The point of opening strong is that.. 1. I don't want to miss out a game.2. It's ok to open 2C because it's almost impossible that we have a major suit fit, which makes the auction 2C 2x3D 3y3NT an ok way to bid the hand. Should pard have some sort of diamond fit, the hand sure becomes worth a 2C opener and he's free to keep bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 IMO, a lot of this hand has to do with evaluation and no one has pointed out the singleton heart Q. For all practical purposes, this card is wastepaper and might as well be turned face down in the bidding and evaluation of the hand. The value of high cards is not only in their "timing and trick" elements, but also in their "support" value. Axx opposite xxx is only an Ace. Put the same xxx opposite Qxx and you have almost nothing; however put the Axx across from Qxx and the Ace has caused the Q to increase massively in value. For the singleton Q to be of increased value, it takes a combination of cards, AKx or KJx. Finally, K10x opposite Q is only good for one trick, but opposite Qx may produce 2 tricks - of those holding, Qx has more value than Q. So for this hand I ignore the singleton Q and see a nice 17 count that due to the long suit and the controls is worth about 18+ to 19. A 5-loser 19 is not IMO worth a 2C opener; having ruled that out, my choice for a rebid are basicaly down to 3. Underbid and rebid 3D. Distort my shape with 3C. Hope for the best with 2C. A couple of oddball choices that could work at times would be 1S (really risky) or 3N (Lying about the diamond solidity). I have my own principle to follow in these situations: Don't be a hero. Make the most practical and descriptive bid available. As this auction has not started real well for our side with a 1H response, it appears 3N is the most likely spot so I make the bid that is most likely to get us there: 3C. Partner should never get excited about the jump shift suit without wonderful support, so even with Qx of diamonds and KJxx of clubs 3D by partner is the better call IMO. I view this minor/minor jump shift as either a game/slam interest unbalanced hand with both minors or a game forcing single suiter (counting 64 as more single-suited than not) looking for no trump. The next bid will clarify. Over any 3-level call that partner makes, I can continue with 3N to show a hand that could have bid a direct 3N but without the required suit. This should place partner in a reasonably good position to visualize my hand and take reasonable further action. Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 I agree, what you want to open with this hand is a matter of style (or what you have been drinking, not eating). I have two bids for strong minor one suiters. A 2♦ opening bid, and a 2♣ opening bid. 2♦ shows 9.5 winners, 2♣ is true game force. Despite this two Strong options, I would choose neither of those bids with this hand. It just isn't good enough. If you (or anyone else), opens this hand 1♦, i assume you will have no problem getting to 6♣ if partner responds 2♣. It is, as they say, elementary. The tricky part becomes how to bid the bidding will go if partner responds 1♥. People have suggested jumps to 3NT, 3♣, 3♦. My rebid choice over 1♥ is a tame, 2♣. (for me, a jump to 3♣ is a weak two suiter in minors). Think of this 2♣ as gazillia like if you want, it is forcing (although in theory partner can pass with 4-7 and very weak hand, that pass is virtually impossible, since you could have strong hand INCLUDING clubs). Over 2♣ here responder would venture forth with 2NT as a transfer to 3♣, planning on taking another call. Opener would reject the transfer, and bid 3♦ to show a diamond one suiter not good enough for the opening bid of 2♦. Responder will now bid 3NT showing long clubs as well as a spade stopper, and at least slam interest (else 3NT immediately, or 2♠ last round, general force, then 3NT). Clearly opener would continue the auction here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. Sadly, you might play in 2♣ facing... xxxxx xxxxx x xx Bidding this way. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. Sadly, you might play in 2♣ facing... xxxxx xxxxx x xx Bidding this way. :-( NOPE partner bids 2h over 1d with that hand thank goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 I don't agree with this philosophy Mike. It is true that partner could have responded on some subminimal hand, but that is not very likely. Better to assume that partner has a little something for his bid. If you keep thinking that partner might have a misfitting 0-count then you never get anywhere. I'd rather get to some unmakable games than miss many out of fear that partner doesn't have his bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 Well bidding like this can get you to slam (6c) while many are playing in 3d (rebid) or 3nt rebid at times. Also you can still raise pard's 2clubs with an overbid of 3c and overbid your games with this style also. Far from perfect but it does allow you outs when partner response very weak and still lets you raise at times with a 3clubs to get to those overbid games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 It's a bad idea to define the 2♦ response to 2♣ as negative. It means that responder is required to make some other bid with any positive hand, even awkward 3-suiters like the one posted. With such a hand, it's much better to preserve bidding space by beginning with 2♦. Hopefully, opener has an easier descriptive bid. Most of the times he rebids 2NT (easy, you're on known terrain with your usual notrump structure), or he rebids a major suit, which you can either support or, if it's your short suit, wait with 2NT (or whatever you have agreed to use as a 2nd relay). So 2♦ doesn't show anything. It just asks opener to describe his hand. I confess that with this particular hand it would be easier with an immediate shape-showing response:2♣-3♣4♣ .........because if it starts2♣-2♦3♦-4♣......it may be unclear which calls are natural and which are cuebids, and also it's unclear to opener that the partnership has enough values for slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POJC Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. That problem is non-existentI would expect my P to bid PASS, not bid 1 of a major... Just like in bridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Well you got to the best spot, but I don't really like the way you got there. For starters, this hand is just not a 2C opener in a 2/1 or SAYC system. I don't know what the 2N response means, but if natural it's also not a good bid with a void. I must say it's tough to find the slam though. The auction will start 1D-1H? If east rebids 3C now, obviously it will be reached. If 3D or 3N is rebid, though, it will be missed. oops...you edited your post while i was posting haha. If 2N is artificial 7+ then I guess it's the system bid, but I'd suggest altering the system. The slam is good, I'll let the math wizards tell you how good. I disagree with you here. After a 1♦ opening, the bidding should start with something like: 1♦-2♣3♦-3NT4♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Yup, Fluffy's auction seems to be quite good. Except that I'm not 100% sure responder has to have 5 clubs in that bidding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Well you got to the best spot, but I don't really like the way you got there. For starters, this hand is just not a 2C opener in a 2/1 or SAYC system. I don't know what the 2N response means, but if natural it's also not a good bid with a void. I must say it's tough to find the slam though. The auction will start 1D-1H? If east rebids 3C now, obviously it will be reached. If 3D or 3N is rebid, though, it will be missed. oops...you edited your post while i was posting haha. If 2N is artificial 7+ then I guess it's the system bid, but I'd suggest altering the system. The slam is good, I'll let the math wizards tell you how good. I disagree with you here. After a 1♦ opening, the bidding should start with something like: 1♦-2♣3♦-3NT4♣ an 11 count with a void in partners suit is now a game forcing bid? OK wasn't aware (note he mentioned 2/1 in his original post). I highly doubt anyone would GF opposite a 1D opener if they had not seen all the hands already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. That problem is non-existentI would expect my P to bid PASS, not bid 1 of a major... Just like in bridge Well Kokish who coaches many top flight teams thinks responder hand must bid 100% of the time, as do other top expert team coaches. Pass is not as clear cut as you infer by many top players or even novice players such as myself. To say this problem is non-existent seems not to be the best turn of the phrase. See current September 2005 issue of ACBL Bulletin for another viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POJC Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons. I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxxThose opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE. That problem is non-existentI would expect my P to bid PASS, not bid 1 of a major... Just like in bridge Well Kokish who coaches many top flight teams thinks responder hand must bid 100% of the time, as do other top expert team coaches. Pass is not as clear cut as you infer by many top players or even novice players such as myself. To say this problem is non-existent seems not to be the best turn of the phrase. See current September 2005 issue of ACBL Bulletin for another viewpoint. That might be correct. It might even be better than what i do... But this is beginner forum, and i doubt that any beginners are taught to respond with around 0 HCP... If i played with a normal p and a natural system i would be really sorry to see P pass my 2C rebid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Yup, Fluffy's auction seems to be quite good. Except that I'm not 100% sure responder has to have 5 clubs in that bidding... If he doesn't have 5♣ then he is forced to have 3♦, so there isn't much problem :) an 11 count with a void in partners suit is now a game forcing bid? OK wasn't aware (note he mentioned 2/1 in his original post). I highly doubt anyone would GF opposite a 1D opener if they had not seen all the hands already. well...., I would. But now you say so it is closer than I though at first. Even though I don't play 1♦-2♣ as Gf, bidding 2♣ with 4c will show GF values if I wanna find the major fit ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Yup, Fluffy's auction seems to be quite good. Except that I'm not 100% sure responder has to have 5 clubs in that bidding... If he doesn't have 5♣ then he is forced to have 3♦, so there isn't much problem :) Ok. So far so good. But then if it goes.. 1♦ 2♣3♦ 3NT4♣ 4♦ what is 4♦? Is it diamond cue with club fit, or it is just saying "I don't have 5 clubs, but I have 3 diamonds."? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POJC Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Yup, Fluffy's auction seems to be quite good. Except that I'm not 100% sure responder has to have 5 clubs in that bidding... If he doesn't have 5♣ then he is forced to have 3♦, so there isn't much problem :) Ok. So far so good. But then if it goes.. 1♦ 2♣3♦ 3NT4♣ 4♦ what is 4♦? Is it diamond cue with club fit, or it is just saying "I don't have 5 clubs, but I have 3 diamonds."? :) With no agreement 4♦ is "i have 3 diamonds, u like this better?".It's never smart to start a cuebid sequence in a bid suit, since p is bound to misunderstand it or forgot what we had agreed on. After 4♣ i would bid 4♥ instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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