How would you rule?

[pigpenz]

Auction:

1NT 2♥ 3NT 4♥

x pass pass pass

 

result 4♥ x +1

 

Opps content their were damaged by failure to alert.

accussed side, their card says:

2♣=one suited hand

2♦=majors

card doesn not say anything about cappelletti on it.

 

Directors says he thought he saw cappelletti on right (?) side of card.

Accussed said he thought only his 2♣ and 2♦ call was alertable.

 

Facts:

7 tables in 3nt making 4

6 tables in 5♦ -1

1 table in 6♦-3

1 table in 4♥x=

 

theres the facts go at it.[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sqj54h98654dc10642&w=sk8h32daq109542cj8&e=sa1097hkjdkj763ck7&s=s632haq107d8caq953]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[awm]

It's pretty clear that there was a failure to alert. Given their agreements about 2♣ and 2♦ and that overcaller had a FOUR card suit and a longer minor, it seems like 2♥ must be intended to show "hearts and a minor" which should certainly be alertable.

 

However, there's some question as to the degree of damage. What would E-W have done differently if they had known that 2♥ showed hearts plus a minor? This may require asking them some additional questions...

 

I'm not really convinced that they would've bid differently if 2♥ had been properly alerted, so my inclination would be to rule that table result stands. But they might be able to convince me otherwise.

[pigpenz]

to me it feels like east-west is getting a two way shot. They did bid to the par contract of 3NT but North sacrificed vul vs vul and East made a poor penalty double.

 

If i felt there was damage by the failure to alert what is the damage?

1.3nt par contract reached

2.4♥ sacrifice doubled contract

3.5♦ reasonalble alternative but down 1-2 tricks

4.4♥ undoubled

 

so maybe south did not alert his bid, so what would the ruling be.

 

My suggestion to the TD, was avg-/-990

Let the result stand for EW, and penalty against NS.

[olegru]

If 2♥ bid promise ♥ and minor they need to alert it.

But where is damage?

As far as I know it is not enogh for EW to say: We were damaged by failure to alert.

Director must ask them: What would you do differently, if 2♥ bid was alerted?

And only if they will give a fast reply and director will beleive this reply is not selfmade in order to save a board, he can make an ajustment.

In this case if EW would not add anything to their content I will not ajust anything. But if they would and their arguments will make sence for me ... why not?

[candybar]

There is also the expectation that experienced players will ask if they want to know, alert or not.

 

Certainly in the case of 1N 2♥, pretty much anyone knows that it might be 2-suited. If it matters to your bidding, you MUST ask. You cannot ignore that possibility, and then claim later that you didn't know what it was.

 

For an entirely different example, suppose the bidding goes 1♣ P 1♥ P 1♠ P 2♦ (no alert) .... and I hold some nice solid diamond holding. I play 4th suit forcing myself, so I am expected to notice this and ASK if I want to know whether the diamond bid is natural or not. I cannot quietly pass, then later claim that I would have doubled for a lead had it been alerted.

 

The ACBL alert procedure puts it this way: "Note also that an opponent who actually knows or suspects what is happening, even though not properly informed, may not be entitled to redress if he or she chooses to proceed without clarifying the situation. "

 

If you have reason to suspect, and don't ask, then you are not entitled to any adjustments.

[hrothgar]

East makes an off shape 1NT opening

(please note, I consider this a perfectly reasonable bid)

 

West gambles 3N with no heart stopper (and no alert)

Once again, a reasonable bid, especially if you're playing fast denies

 

However, East-West then follow with a risky penalty double and complain when

 

1. The two suited hand with ♥KJ isnt worth much on defense

2. The 7 card suit isn't pulling much defensive weight either

 

Hard for me to rule that the damage was caused by the failure to alert...

I don't fault the bids in question. I'd probably make them myself.

I do fault the mentalty that says you can agmble with you're openings and responses and then try to seize on a failure to alert when you don't get the rub of the green.

[Walddk]

Another example of how EW tried to claim damage for their poor judgement. The failure to alert did not damage EW, and they will not get an adjustment if I am the TD. If that ruling came before an Appeals Committee, I am convinced that it will be deemed "an appeal without merit" and deposit forfeited.

 

We don't have an AC on BBO (a thread I started a few months ago), and maybe it's a good thing that we haven't if an appeal involves no risk ($). In real life frivolous appeals are pretty rare, but I predict that we would get hundreds of those if we were to create an AC here.

 

Roland

[coyot]

I don't think E/W were not damaged. I'm not sure what would I do at the table, but hearing the bid explained as hearts with a minor, the 3♦ as gameforcing on diamonds is perfectly natural (and gives the partner the message that opps' minor is most likely clubs... (And 3NT from opener would then definitely promise stoppers in both suits.).

 

I would have bid 3♦ even over natural hearts, definitely not 3NT like this, though...

 

The double on 4♥ was right, assuming that opener believed responder has a stopper :) - but I don't think this was a two-way shot.

 

You can do twoway shots when you know before the play commences that opps failed to alert something - you try to get a good result and if it fails, you call the TD and complain.

 

Here it is the typical case of the overcaller's responder KNOWING that he has a good hand - either two superfits or a void in partner's second suit and a ton of small trumps to ruff with. (Again, it is somewhat likely that most ppl would bid 4♥ with this hand no matter what the 2♥ promises, if it includes 4 hearts :-))

 

So, I think that although E/W bid poorly, an alert of 2♥ with proper explanation might quite well push them to bid more correctly. If the responder answers honestly that he would bid 3♦ over 2♥ if he knew this promises two suits, then the damage is obvious.

[pigpenz]

so what should director or committee ask participants??

 

West...if you knew two suiter what would you have done different?

1.3♦ forcing

2.3NT no heart stopper if playing lebensol

3.5♦

 

East...if you knew was two suiter what would you do different?

1.bid 5♦ or 3NT if 3♦ is forcing

2. pass 3NT

3.pass 5♦ or bid 6♦

 

IF North bids 4♥ what would do?

pass

double

5♦

 

Opps were fixed by Norths 4♥ call vul vs vul.

1.cant play 3nt cause North bid 4♥

2.5♦ cant make

3.pass or double 4♥

 

now the committe and director would have all the info. :D

 

Now the standard used to be what would 60% of good plus players do with the East and West hands.

[LH2650]

East should pass 4 ♥, and West should then bid 4 Notrump. I don't see how these actions are affected by the failure to Alert. No adjustment.

[Finch]

There is also the expectation that experienced players will ask if they want to know, alert or not.

 

Certainly in the case of 1N 2♥, pretty much anyone knows that it might be 2-suited. If it matters to your bidding, you MUST ask. You cannot ignore that possibility, and then claim later that you didn't know what it was.

Hmmm. Round here (England) it is extremely rare to play 2H as anything other than natural. If it wasn't alerted I would be completely justified in assuming it was a natural single-suiter in hearts.

 

Be that as it may, it is clear that 2H should have been alerted.

 

It is not at all clear how EW were damaged by the failure to alert. They should have been asked how they would have bid differently if 2H had been alerted. If they give a concinving explanation of what would have happened differently, they get an adjusted score. If they can't, they weren't damaged and the result stands.