Question for 2/1 players

[awm]

Suppose the auction starts 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠. How many spades does responder show? Are spades set as trump, or could you still play somewhere else? Is opener's first priority to bid out his shape or to cuebid for spades?

[ArcLight]

>Suppose the auction starts 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠. How many spades does responder show? Are spades set as trump, or could you still play somewhere else? Is opener's first priority to bid out his shape or to cuebid for spades?

 

The 2♦ bid establishes the game force, with less than 4 Spade support.

The 2♠ confirms Spades are trumps, probably 3 card support, could be 2.

With 2, responder may look for 3NT.

 

Responder can see Opener is something like 5-4, 5-5,6-4, 6-5.

Opener is showing a heart suit, because with just crap he could instead rebid 2♠.

 

Openers priority:

 

1) show 4 trump support

2) make the game force

 

 

[this is from Mike Lawrence's 2/1 CD]

[Guest Jlall]

Very nice poll. Here are my thoughts.

 

1) a 2/1 then a raise of the major shows 3+ trumps (usually 3, but sometimes you just have 4 and wanted to start with 2 of your minor to show your length). Yes you can run into problems on some VERY specific hands, but you pay off long run easily by making this show 3+ trumps. With xxx in the unbid suit i bid 2N and take my chances. even if partner has xx they may break 4-4, and its not clear we have a better spot. if he has a singleton we'll hear about it. and if he also has xxx it may be the only way to find NT. The gains of being able to set trumps at such a low level and be in a GF are huge, much greater than catering to a specific hand type that rarely comes up.

 

2) I *strongly* believe opener should pattern out at this point. Cuebidding can wait, opener can show his exact shape (almost)! That is so big for responder to know. 3m shows 3, 2N shows 5422, 3H shows 5-5+ 3S shows 6-4+. This is one of the strongest starts in a 2/1 auction I believe, and responder is in great shape to judge his cards.

 

3) You can still end up in alternative strains even if you have an 8 card fit. The best example of this would be 1S-2D-2H-2S-3C-3N-p where both sides have weak trumps and there are trick sources outside of spades. Another good example is 1S-2D-2H-2S-3D where you end up playing diamonds as trumps.

 

4) every partnership thats even semi-casual should discuss this auction.

[mike777]

1) 2s sets trump very very often

2) Opener should expect 3 spades but of course there may be some rare 2 spade or 4 spade hand.

3) I want opener to cuebid Ace and not bid out shape at this point.

4) With a really junky opener partner can choose to not bid ace but show shape, with a more "normal opening bid" cue Ace.

[Winstonm]

Like everything in bidding, a lot depends on the methods you employ for other bids. For example, what would 1S-2D-2H-3S mean? Whatever it means, it is a hand that is excluded from the 1S-2D-2H-2S auction. Same with 1S-2D-2H-4S.

 

And then there are the other raises: Jacoby, Splinters, and the like.

 

I have a firm belief that playing 2/1, the more room a bid takes up the more precise should be its meaning because 2/1 is designed to be room saving.

 

So for me, 1S-2D-2H-3S is much like a Serious 3N bid. It is in a sense a "picture bid" in that it shows excellent 4 card trump support and a slammish looking hand.

 

1S-2D-2H-4S is equally a picture bid. It shows good spades, good diamonds, and denies a red suit control.

 

That leaves 1S-2D-2H-2S to cover a lot of hands. Some are excluded due to Jacoby raise with balanced hands and 4 trump and the use of Modified Bergen with game going 3-card support hands without a good minor.

 

Whatever hands that are left are bid with a 2S rebid as I play it. As for patterning out or cue bidding, I am more inclined to hear partner's evaluation of his hand that forcing him to show his pattern to me and the rest of the world. Partner can look at his hand and tell if it has slammish looking minimum cards, slammish looking good cards, no-trump looking weakish values, or just a plain old vanilla opening bid.

 

This auction brings up another of my pet ideas - the "Serious Self Raise". After 1S-2D-2H-2S we are in a game going auction, so why not separate the weaker slam tries from the good ones with 3S? There isn't much use for this unless you are required to pattern, so another method is to cue bid with minimum shapely cards and controls and bid a Serious 3S with a stronger hand.

 

Winston

[mikeh]

Justin: first of all, welcome back.

 

Secondly, I think that your second point actually argues for my preferred approach: that 2♠ shows at least 2 cards.... usually 3+, but, on difficult hands, 2 cards.

 

The requirement that opener make a descriptive, pattern-showing bid, fits very well with this approach, allowing the partnership to back into other fits or notrump, without the risks inherent in forcing responder to bid 2N on xxx in the 4th suit.

 

It comes down to cost-benefit analysis. My experience (which is certainly a lot less than yours on an annual basis but is probably equivalent on a career basis :) ) suggests that there is almost no cost to playing 2♠ as usually 3+ but occasionally, on specific hands, 2 while there is a real cost to wrongsiding 3N or simply getting there with a combined holding of Jx opposite xxx (opener with AQxxx KQxx Jx Jx will be extremely pleased to bid 3N after 1♠ 2♦ 2♥ 2N.

 

There are a lot worse things than bidding a 5-2 major suit game contract :)

 

I think this poll was suggested by a post of mine in which I suggested that, over 2♥, 2♠ was the correct bid with Kx QJx AQJxx xxx (in 2/1)

[luke warm]

i can't imagine 2s having fewer than 3 spades

[the hog]

2-3 S, never ever 4 of course as there are a myriad other ways to bid hands with 4 card supports. It certainly does not set S. Opener will describe his hand.

 

In the sequence shown, it denies a good 5 card D suit together with 3S+ to an honour.

[awm]

Let me preface this by saying I don't consider myself a serious 2/1 player. In all my regular partnerships, the sequence 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠ is non-forcing and normally a doubleton spade. This obviously misses out on the potential advantages of 2/1 in slam bidding, but gets us to an excellent partial on many fairly common hands.

 

It seems like there could certainly be advantages to using 2♠ in this auction as sort of a "relay" just to find out more from opener... kind of like mikeh describes. However, my experience talking to people who ARE serious 2/1 players, is that most treat this 2♠ bid as showing a definite (3+) fit in spades. As to whether opener should cuebid or pattern next, it seems like people are fairly evenly divided although the stronger players more often seem to prefer pattern.

[whereagles]

Even for people who play non-gf 2/1, this 2S rebid shows a fit.

[the hog]

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like

1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

[awm]

I wouldn't say this is a "right" or "wrong" matter. It has more to do with style and personal preferences. There are several possible meanings for the 2♠ bid in a non-GF 2/1 style:

 

(1) Doubleton, preference, non-forcing invite. This is what I play, and it's great when you have a declined invite and you get to play 2♠ instead of having to play 2NT. It also gives you an "out" when you have a bare invite without help in the fourth suit. Of course, you potentially lose out on the advantages of the other styles.

 

(2) Three-card limit raise. This allows you to stop at the two-level on a declined limit raise, and also gives responder the chance to identify side values in the process of making a limit raise. Certainly this is more effective than a 2/1-style limit raise where you have to bid forcing notrump and then jump to the 3-level. However, it leaves a "hole" when you have an invite with no clear fit and no stopper in the fourth suit, and also means you have to play a lot more 2NT contracts.

 

(3) Same as in game-forcing 2/1. You win on the slam auctions, but lose on the partscores.

 

(4) Either of the first two, might seem to get the best of both. But it seems kind of hard to cope with though, as partner will often be uncertain whether to bid on with a shapely minimum that might make 4♠ opposite a real fit.

[whereagles]

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like

1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

Wrong, hoggie. Maybe in australia people play like that, but in some countries in Europe

 

1S 2C

2H 2S = honest support, invitational

 

1S 2C

2H 3S = gf support, slam try

 

1S 2C

2H 4S = gf but not interested in slam

 

Incidently, the hand you showed rebids 2NT. You might not like the rebid, but that's how we play around here, some world champions included.

[Walddk]

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like

1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

Wrong, hoggie. Maybe in australia people play like that, but in some countries in Europe

 

1S 2C

2H 2S = honest support, invitational

 

1S 2C

2H 3S = gf support, slam try

 

1S 2C

2H 4S = gf but not interested in slam

 

Incidently, the hand you showed rebids 2NT. You might not like the rebid, but that's how we play around here, some world champions included.

Yes, we have had this discussion before, and 2NT is arguably the worst bid I have seen (read about) since January 21, 1936.

 

xx

KJx

xxx

AQxxx

 

1♠ - 2♣

2♥ - 2NT!??

 

Scary. They will probably never lead diamonds against NT, unless they have been paying attention to the auction of course.

 

Roland

[coyot]

My agreements are:

 

Use a system raise with GF values and full support if possible.

2/1 is one of such system raises, promising 12-15 HCP with non-balanced hand.

(16+ via 2NT, 12-15 balanced via 3NT).

 

When playing simpler raises, I recommend having 2NT as 12+ with 3card or at least limit raise with 4card.

 

This will give you 2/1 as a bid that either denies support (In that case, over a new suit, continue bidding your shape) or promises support and VERY good side suit.

 

Imagine a hand like Kxx-x-AKJ10xx-xxx. You can see 11 tricks in 2 suits - and the best you can do is tell partner by 2/1 and then showing full support that you really HAVE a good source of tricks.

 

With a doubleton spade honor, the bidding after 1♠-2♦-2♥ should be:

2NT with no extra shape, showing stopper. (3NT same and stronger? or weaker?)

3♣ with no extra shape, asking for stopper

3♦ 6card

3♥ 4card

[Fluffy]

I'm with whereagles, you might not like to bid 2NT without ♦ stopper, but the system says you should bid it with 10-11 without fit nor 6♣s. Sure you can apply your judgement and bid someting else, but that doesn't mean 2NT isn't correct.

[jdulmage]

generally 3 spades, could be 2 if he expects misfit is coming up.

[the hog]

I'm with whereagles, you might not like to bid 2NT without ♦ stopper, but the system says you should bid it with 10-11 without fit nor 6♣s. Sure you can apply your judgement and bid someting else, but that doesn't mean 2NT isn't correct.

 

What system is this precisely, Fluffy? The question has been posted in the 2/1 and Sayc forum. The original poster specifically mentions 2/1 in the title of the post, so why do you bring in 10-11? However as you have introduced a different topic, I will respond to that as well. In sayc with 10-12 and a 5 card suit you bid 2/1 and then give preference on a doubleton to opener's major when you don't have a 2NT rebid.

 

In a 2/1 system you have various options depending on the style you play. As the 2/1 bid is gf, you have picture bids at the 4 level, a jump to the 3 level to show a decent 5 card suit and 3 card support to an honour, a 2NT bid to show a blanced 12-14 with a stopper, and a 2S bid as a catch all.

 

You are making the mistake of responding in the lingua franca of your your own country rather than responding to the original question.

[Winstonm]

Nothing like a clear-cut "maybe" to cause a stir.

 

This is simply a problem that some hands are unbiddable and you have to decide which misinformation you want to emphasize. I believe the original post stipulated 2D created a game force.

 

The 2S bidders seem to want to be able to deny a club stop.

The 2N bidders want to gurantee at least 3 spades, show shape, and to heck with the stoppers.

 

There are other methods as well:

1) Raise the second suit of opener with 3 card support

2) Bid the 4th suit as a general force without 3 spades and without a stop.

 

I wouldn't be unhappy if when holding xx, KQJ, AKJxx, xxx that over 2H partner didn't decide the best move might not be 3H.

 

The give up I chose was the natural 3C bid. Now 2S shows at least 3 card support, 2N has a diamonds stopper, and to heck with the rest.

 

Who knows what is best on average? Probably more important that partner knows what is going on and is comfortable with the useage.

 

Winston

[hrothgar]

In what I'm sure is a shocking development, I agree with Ron, Roland, and Winston. I think that Winston has already identified the most crucial point about this sequence:

 

"the more room a bid takes up the more precise should be its meaning"

 

Given the choice between using 2♠ and 2NT as the "garbage bid", I strongly prefer using 2♠ - there

 

I find it interesting to note the extent to which Whereagles disagrees with this philosophy... Case in point: His suggestion that

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 4♠

 

should be used to show a minimum strength 2/1 with no interest in slam. Minimum strength 2/1 responses are by far the most common hand holdings. Given that opener's strength is quite wide ranging, it would seem reasonable to use a modicum of bidding space to explore level or maybe even strain...

[inquiry]

I find it interesting to note the extent to which Whereagles disagrees with this philosophy... Case in point: His suggestion that

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 4♠

 

should be used to show a minimum strength 2/1 with no interest in slam. Minimum strength 2/1 responses are by far the most common hand holdings. Given that opener's strength is quite wide ranging, it would seem reasonable to use a modicum of bidding space to explore level or maybe even strain...

I agree that 2♠ should be the yuck bid. But I want to say something about

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 4♠

 

I use this to show a hand with 3/4♠, 5+♦, at least 2♥ and 2♣, and (importantly) no A or K of clubs or Ace or King of ♥s. So he has enough to force to game, and all or almost all of his values are in these two suits. This is a picture bid, and works very well. Opener is ideally placed to know how to continue.

 

Typical hands

 

KQxx xx AKQxx xx

 

AQxx xx AQJxx xx

 

KJx xx AKQJxx xx

 

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ

 

Things like that

[pclayton]

2S for me shows 3+ trump. I don't automatically raise with 4 trump if I have a decent side suit. Isn't that one of the reasons we play 2/1 in the 1st place?

 

In the given auction, opener patterns through 3S and so does responder. If responder or opener skip the pattern sequences, it is a picture jump.

 

Once we hit 3 of our major, cue bidding and friv 3N start.

[mike777]

Typical hands

 

KQxx xx AKQxx xx

1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

 

AQxx xx AQJxx xx

1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

 

KJx xx AKQJxx xx

1s=2d=2h=2s=slam try. cue bid partner.'FAST ARRIVAL"

 

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ

1s=2d=2h=4s=minimum 14-15 hcp hand with 3 spades very often."FAST ARRIVAL"

 

Why complicate, just support with support.

 

Yes I am reading in MILES new book how he prefers 4s to be picture bid, slam try, excellent trumps, I am not convinced.

[the hog]

Typical hands

 

KQxx xx AKQxx xx

1s=2D followed by 3S

AQxx xx AQJxx xx

1S - 2D followed by a picture jump

 

KJx xx AKQJxx xx

1s=2d=2h=S=slam try. together with Serious

 

Why complicate, just support with support.

[awm]

I think the idea of higher bids carrying more information is a good argument for 4th suit as a punt. If 3♣ is "natural" then surely this is more frequent than a 2NT bid (which essentially shows 2353 exactly with a club stopper). In fact the natural 3♣ call can give opener something of a problem in deciding whether to raise or bid 3NT.

 

A general rule of using 2NT with clubs (or just a club stopper) and 3♣ as a punt will make sure the 2NT call is more frequent. This is also nice because 2NT is low enough that opener can pattern out effectively. You'll find club fits when you want them on an auction like 1♠-2♦-2♥-2NT-3♣.

 

While the fourth suit as a "punt" can potentially be pretty high in some auctions, it describes an extremely specific hand. For example, take 1♠-2♣-2♥-3♦. This bid essentially denies holding three spades, four hearts, six clubs, or a stopper in diamonds. It basically has to be exactly 2335 shape with Jxx or worse diamonds. Opener's pretty well placed to set the strain here I would think. On the other hand, if 3♦ were "natural" that could describe a much wider range of hands.