What do you think of my bidding?

[Blofeld]

but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

I don't quite follow this.

 

Opposite a minimum classic-shape takeout double with your 'wasted heart values', say:

Kxxx

KJxx

x

KQxx

 

we find that 4♠ is very likely to make with chances of an overtrick, while they may well be taking 10 tricks in hearts.

 

Even without the ♣Q, the hand might just scrape up a takeout double. Yet even opposite the working 8 count here the spade game has some play.

 

If I've been made to pass first time, I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4♠ at my second turn.

[P_Marlowe]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

 

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:

(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl

(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣

a.p.

 

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. <snip>

You did exacty that.

 

You showed a strong suit, how on earth should

partner know, that his 6 card suit plays better

that yours, he has no idea unless you show him

your hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Al_U_Card]

With the 7 loser hand, you may be a bit too good for a weak 2. I loathe making 1st seat one bids with super minimum hands even though this one has so many redeeming features (easy 2S rebids, potential Club fit with pard etc.) More so 1st seat 2 bids that get in pard's way.

 

The H void says get into the auction so at unfavourable conditions I would pass but at equal vulnerability I would bid 1S and at favorable vulnerability 2S.

 

Given the pass, I have no problem with the 20 hcp double and bid intention of your partner. Cater to this possiblility by q-bidding their suit (either D or H) and then correcting to S. (Often RHO will bid 1H over the double.)

[Double !]

as an "advanced player", my approach in making a decision whether or not to start with a takeout dbl is that P's responses with be predicated on the assumption that you at least close to a classic or template takeout double (4441 with shortness in opener's suit). Without that type of hand, if you're doubling on a GOSH, it has to be good enough to handle any response that responder might make. Heart suit on this hand is not independent enough for such action. Right or wrong, I would have simply overcalled 1 heart and followed up with stronger bidding depending on what my partner responded. I am probably in the minority on this, just my style. (lol: anyone for strong jump-overcall? yeah, right.) I sympathize with your decision to not open 2S due to heart void and no A or K in your suit. The only redeeming feature to opening 2S is the mild internal solidity of the spade suit. This is really an issue for partnership discussion/ agreement IMO.

[Fluffy]

North's hand is a clear 3♠ opening to me, but seems that's just me.

 

1 thing I have pretty clear is that North has an automatic 4♠ bid after partner's take out double, sure you can miss slam, but hands that make it are pretty much built up for it. And losing your time when LHO can be willing to bid 4♥ is something I won't let him do.

 

As other's said, doubling with a void on a side suit is simply ridicoulous, when that suit is ♠... even more.

 

 

About te discusion if you don't open weak 2 with X, or Y, or whatever, I don't follow any of those theories, as Luis said there is no hand between 1♠ and 2♠, but rather I find a lot of them who fit both. Only exception I have sympathies with is the 2 aces and nothing else rule, althou I don't follow it, and it has more to do with suit quality than with defensive strenght.

[the hog]

Personally I would have opened 2S and find the given rationale for passing difficult to accept. I agree with Phil that 90%, probably more, of strong players who play weak 2 bids will open that hand.

 

I also cannot possibly believe that anyone would overcall 1H on that monster; this is laughable. The hand is virtually cold for 5H opposite xxxxxx Jx Qx Qxx and partner will pass and the hand will be passed out. Explain that to your partners!! Furthermore, give your partner 6D to the A and nothing else and you have a good play for 7D.

 

This hand is a good argument for not jumping to game with a hand that cannot open the bidding. As Coyot points out, there a number of ways to show S hands.

[mike777]

Personally I would have opened 2S and find the rationale for passing difficult to accept. I agree with Phil that 90%, probably more, of strong players who play weak 2 bids will open that hand.

Wow, this remark by you and Phil really surprises me.

90% or more of strong players agreeing on any one bridge issue always surprising let alone this hand.

[the hog]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

 

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:

(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl

(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣

a.p.

 

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

Helene, I think both you and your partner misbid. Your partner did not overcall initially, therefore a 2H bid from her now would have shown a weak hand with 6H. (Else why not overcall immediately).

I assume that jumps by you in the pass out seat are intermediate, so I too would assume that you were showing a stronger hand with no H support with your 3C bid.

[000002]

(1) open 2♠ better than pass

(2) you can leap 4♠,but 3♠on your's own is sufficient

(3) why u rebid 5[hi] based on partner's passed hand?

[helene_t]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

 

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:

(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl

(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣

a.p.

 

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

Helene, I think both you and your partner misbid. Your partner did not overcall initially, therefore a 2H bid from her now would have shown a weak hand with 6H. (Else why not overcall immediately).

I assume that jumps by you in the pass out seat are intermediate, so I too would assume that you were showing a stronger hand with no H support with your 3C bid.

This makes sense. Maybe it's different in 4th seat. Also because the risk of preemption is small so you don't get something like:

(1♥)-dbl-(3♥)-4♠

(pass)-$@#*!??

[coyot]

but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

I don't quite follow this.

 

Opposite a minimum classic-shape takeout double with your 'wasted heart values', say:

Kxxx

KJxx

x

KQxx

 

we find that 4♠ is very likely to make with chances of an overtrick, while they may well be taking 10 tricks in hearts.

 

Even without the ♣Q, the hand might just scrape up a takeout double. Yet even opposite the working 8 count here the spade game has some play.

 

If I've been made to pass first time, I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4♠ at my second turn.

Sorry, but the minimum you painted is OPTIMAL and highly improbable (4441 shape :unsure:).

 

And, given your spade length, the conditional probability of the doubler having a 4card becomes much lower.

 

His most likely shapes are 3424 or even 3523. (Or, even 3433 if he has a little extra strength, maybe).

 

Anyway, the point I want to make is simple: Jumping to game is wasting space if partner happens to have anything better than classic takeout. Jump to 3♠ will be hardly ever passed by the doubler, because it gets the message across that you have a very good hand on long spades... and if you fear that partner will pass this, you can always bid 2♦ and listen for what partner has to say.

 

Any of the above auctions will protect you against better than classic takeout hands - and you will hardly ever miss a good game.

 

I am again asking the proponents of jump to 4♠:

What would a jump to 3♠ show (that would be SO frequent a type of hand that you would consider it too good for 2♠ and not good enough for game?

(Not mentioning the possibility to bid game-hands via cuebid. It does not cost anything, partner will most likely bid 2♥ with minimum, 3NT with stronger notrump and jumpsuit with a strong onesuiter.)

 

[i am not trying to argue that this hand is too weak to play 4♠ against a regular takeout. I would most likely reach the game, too - but I don't think that a direct game jump is a good idea, especially when I have a lot of other options, of which some might easily protect me from those sad cases where partner's hand turns to be unsuitable for 4♠.

[the hog]

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

 

As an unpassed hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable to bid 4S on QJT9xx and an outside A. Now if pd did X on the very strong hand, he can pass in the knowledge that pd hold THIS type of hand. The he S holding is playable opposite a void. I don't know if anyone is prepared to make a distinction between passed and unpassed hands, but it does make sense.

[flytoox]

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

What about this one:

S:765432

H: KX

D: AXXX

C: X

[inquiry]

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

What about this one:

S:765432

H: KX

D: AXXX

C: X

3♠ more than enough with that hand. In fact a jump to 2♠ would not be totally out of place.

 

What is the real distinction between cue-bid, jump to 2M and Jump to 3M and Jump to 4M after a takeout double? I guess you have to decide on your own. but my rules are fairly simple.

 

1) I don't jump with four card suit, With 0 to 10 hcp, and four card suit, I bid 1♠ (yes even with ten). This allows partner to make light takeout doubles.

 

2) with good 6-10 points and five card suit, jump to 2M

 

3) with 11-12 and five card suit or a few points less and a six card suit, jump to 3M. The example hand has a control rich seven hcp and a sixth spade, making it boarderline low 3S bid.

 

4) with 11-12 and four card suit, cue-bid, with better than 13 or more, cue-bid.

 

Notice, leap to 4M is not in the list. This doesn't mean such bids don't exist. This shows "my suit" (good six card suit), and a "weak two" opener kind of hand with the presumed fit. That is, it is the 10=12 hand that jumps to 3M but with a good suit of own and six or seven cards.

 

Of course, you can use your own responding scheme. But if you make a takeout double, you should be PREPARED for partner to bid 4 of any unbid major.

[reisig]

For me - There is no such thing as too good for 2♠ but not good enough for 1♠. I don't care what you choose (2 for me) ...but Pass is not a choice.

[Fluffy]

The only thing you need to bid 4M after partner's take out double is a 6 card suit. In the major if it is possible :).

[coyot]

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

 

As an unpassed hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable to bid 4S on QJT9xx and an outside A. Now if pd did X on the very strong hand, he can pass in the knowledge that pd hold THIS type of hand. The he S holding is playable opposite a void. I don't know if anyone is prepared to make a distinction between passed and unpassed hands, but it does make sense.

I don't want my partner to jump to game on any hand that does not rule out slam possibility against strong doubles. There are several other possibilities how to bid these hands. 4♠ is a terrible shut-out, after which a possible 6♣ is absolutely unreachable.

 

2♠ with a passed hand is passable, with an unpassed hand should not be. So, with passed hand, bid 3♠ to say "I would very much like to play 4♠, unless your hand is totally unsuitable.

[mikeh]

This is an example of bad luck, coupled with a dubious, but hardly irrational, decision to pass as dealer.

 

I am a very strong overcaller. I have made overcalls on 19 count hands quite often (considering how infrequently the opportunity arises) and I HATE takeout doubles unprepared for a major response.

 

However, I suspect that no serious player would be able to find a simple 1♥ overcall as South: except in a bridge forum, knowing what fate would befall a double!

 

As for North, having passed, his choices are 2♦, intending to bid ♠ over ANY response, or 4♠.

 

Those who think 3♠ shows a better hand than 2♠ would definitely be in the minority amongst experts in my part of the world, where 3♠ shows a weak hand with 6 or 7 ♠. Jxxxxxx xx x Qxx would be okay by a passed hand.

 

It says that we can compete to the 3-level opposite a prototypical 4=4=1=4 takeout double and should be in game opposite extra values and 4=4=1=4 or equivalent shape.

 

It is not a stronger hand than 2♠: it is a different hand, based on suit length (and assumed fit), not high card strength.

 

After the 4♠, obviously S cannot pass: how can N have a self-sufficient suit?

 

And N is correct to bid 5♠: his hand is of almost no use in a ♥ contract.

 

So chalk this one up to experience, and loosen up your requirements for a weak two in 1st seat :o

[mikestar]

To make 4♥ partner needs you to have ♥xx and ♣xx or shorter, or ♥xxx and ♦xx or shorter, or ♥xx and ♦9...

 

That's game opposite some perfect yarboroghs, never mind if you have a card or two--just to strong for an overcall.

[Winstonm]

What is the rush to jump? If the hand is worth either a 1S opening or a 2S opening then surely it is worth a game forcing bid opposite a takeout double. Why not this simple auction?

 

1D-X-P-2D

P- 2H-P-2S

P-3H-P-3S

P-3N-P-P

P

 

Unless playing ELC, the doubler has 1 of 3 hand types: a classic takeout double, a NT hand too big for direct action, or a powerful 1-suiter. The responding hand will not be a disappointment opposite any of those, so it seems easiest to show the game values for the partnership with a cue bid. Anyone who doesn't value this hand as worthy of a game force opposite a standard takeout double is, IMHO, forgetting to visualize the combined assests.

 

Kxxx, QJxx, x, Axxx: a classic minimum

Kxx, AQxxx, x, KJx: The "unlucky" normal that is still a good bet.

 

Anything better than these and you have to like it. Even the non-fit twenty count plays in 3N with decent chances. So why not tell your partner that we belong in some game, then you have lots of room to find the best game?

 

Guess I'm simpleminded.

 

Winston

[mike777]

No, I am even more simpleminded I just bid 4h with this hand, give on slam, keeps bidding simpleminded.

[the hog]

Mike, I don't think you mean "simpleminded". However the jump to 4 is an extremely poor bid, perhaps though not as bad as bidding 1H as has already been pointed out. Opposite the CQ, DQ and a couple of H to the J you are in the refrigerator for 6H.

[Winstonm]

If one plays a limited bid system, a 1S bid is acceptable for me with this hand; however, I am strongly against a 2S bid. IMO, voids carry too much weight to ever be expressed adequately after a preemptive bid, especially one with another useful card for defense.

 

I don't believe it is possible for many to find slam after 2S with this:

 

AKxxx

Jxxx,

x

AKJ

 

However, after this auction:

 

P-P-1S-P

4H*

 

There is a realistic chance, now - how can a passed hand splinter and force to game without great length, shape, and a void?

 

Winston

[coyot]

Kxxx, QJxx, x, Axxx: a classic minimum

Kxx, AQxxx, x, KJx: The "unlucky" normal that is still a good bet.

Why do you expect partner so surely to have singleton diamond? Classic hands will be of 3-4-2-4- or 3-5-2-3 shapes (the latter with bad hearts).

 

The unlucky normal would be xxx - KQJx - Kx - KJxx