What do you think of my bidding?

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=sqjt843hda65ct953&s=shakq654dkjt7cak6]133|200|Scoring: XIMP

Pa (1D) Dbl (Pa)

4s (Pa) 5h =

[/hv]

I did not open 2S on first seat because of ♥ void and a side Ace. At last moment, i was hesitated to bid 5S. I want to know what the pros will do? Thanks in advance.

[flytoox]

Pd shouldnot dbl after 1D. He should overcall 1H if he wants to start slowly. I would just bid 4H facing a passed hand.

 

THere is nothing wrogn with 4S, though I would consider opening 2S.

 

Hongjun

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I am not a pro.

 

Pass is ok as opener, the same is true for the

take out dbl.

 

The 4S as answer is to much, 3S is enough.

 

Over 5H Pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Not too much. Open north 2♠ or if you can't stand that, 1♠ (I open it mulit 2♦ -- think of it as a 2♠ opener BTW). Why open it? Why because it has sufficient ZAR points of course (7 hcp, 2 control points, 16 distributional points = 25 Zars, just enough to open when holding spades.. see ZAR's webpage for details).

 

I can not fault 4♠ over the double, I can't really believe anyone would pass initially and then not force to game opposite a takeout double.

[coyot]

1) Takeout double is OK. This hand is too great to bid as heart overcall.

 

2) Jumping to 4♥ would not be OK as it would strongly suggest WEAK hand. You'll never reach a slam here... (Give partner J of hearts and here you go...

 

3) jumping to 4♠ against a simple takeout is a gross overbid.

- if partner has the reasonable minimum, you'll make 4♠ ONLY if he has working values, i.e. not something like KJxx in hearts

- if partner has a strong takeout in own suit (this case), you've blocked him and wasted room.

- passing 5♥ is a must. Strong one-suiters are bid this way and they're not meant to be escaped from :-)

 

Ben: Would you bid a takeout double over 1♦ with:

 

Kxx-KJxx-Kxx-Axx? xxx-KQJx-Kx-KJxx?

 

I can construct quite a lot of hands that qualify for takeout even against a passed hand where 4♠ does not make - and I think that, especially given the fact that the responder had 3 jump bids available, 4♠ was simply too much.

 

jump to 2♠ is 8+ HCP, (4)5card.... Jump to 3♠ promises longer spades... what other values does the hand have apart from the (most likely BAD) asset of heart void?

[inquiry]

Ben: Would you bid a takeout double over 1♦ with:

 

Kxx-KJxx-Kxx-Axx? xxx-KQJx-Kx-KJxx?

I bid 1♥ with the second one. With the first one, I tend to pass.

 

While you MIGHT construct a few hands where a reasonable person might make a takeout double and game can not make, you can not construct very many. The GREAT percentage of hands game will be laydown and opposite many, slam might be cold. 2♠ bid with this past hand monster is simply not in the "cards". After all, one might jump to 2♠ on a variety of hands. Many will jump with four spades and an nine or ten high card points (I need five to jump with less than 10 hcp).

 

The need for 4♠ comes about because of passing an opening hand. That is, my hand CAN NOT be this good. So, if I pass (which I would not), I will bid 4♠ here.

[han]

It is true that there are minimum hands for partner that will make 4S go down. However, unless you have a bid that shows a good hand with 6 spades and short hearts, partner will not be able to judge what is a good minimum and what is a bad minimum. Since game looks good opposite as little as xxxx xxxx x AQxx, I suggest bidding 4S. (I would also open 2S with such a nice suit, can't wait for the perfect hand to preempt)

 

Coyot, I don't believe that (1D)-4H shows a weak hand opposite a passed hand. It could be weak, but it could also be a hand good enough to make 4H. This hand is perhaps too good (but I am really impressed with your dummy play, making 6H opposite the jack of hearts and out!). However, doubling with a void in an unbid major is UGLY and should be avoided at almost all costs.

 

BTW, having seen some of Inquiry's doubles (and more importantly, passes) makes me pretty sure that he would not double with either of these hands.

[mike777]

1) Agree with pass, closer to opening 1s than 2s.

2) Agree with 4h not double, just bid your darn games and stop worrying about a passed hand having perfect slam cards. (Bergen bidding tip)

[pclayton]

I would open the N hand 2S and I believe 90% of experts would do so as well.

 

There are some old schoolers that wouldn't open it 2S because of the 2 'flaws' - side Ace and void.

 

Once North passes, most would double with that huge South hand. The spade void is a big concern, but nothing else fits.

 

Playing my methods, I'm not sure what I'd do - but I'm not in this mess, since I open it 2S.

 

Over the double, 4S is automatic, and so is 5H.

 

I'd be curious to see how the 'light openers' stay out of slam once North opens 1S.

[coyot]

I'll try to defend a little more:

 

A)

 

(1♦)-4♥ might not show weak hand, just too ugly?

 

Well, I don't want to give my partner guesses. While it has some merits to play bids with intent to preempt OR make (and hiding the true intent from opps), this is good when your partner does not NEED to know. If they bid 5♦ or 4♠, should he bid 5♥ or pass? Will you miss a slam if he passes and you double with the ugly hand?

 

I think that it is just a matter of agreement how to show a hand that would want to play 4♥. One of them is takeout double and then jump...

 

;)

 

The jump to 3-4♠. I see no reason to jump to 4♠ when I can jump to 3♠, telling partner that I have a good onesuiter, too good to jump to 2♠. And I don't want to jump to game with 6suiter and 7 HCP, when my void happens to be in a suit where partner most certainly has some values.

 

In other words: Paint me some hands that are not good enough to jump to game and too good to jump to 2♠. I think there is plenty of room to differentiate and 4♠ is an overbid in this sense. What will you do with a better hand, one of almost opening values? (If your system does not handle it for some reason, that is...)

[Walddk]

I think there is plenty of room to differentiate and 4♠ is an overbid in this sense. What will you do with a better hand, one of almost opening values? (If your system does not handle it for some reason, that is...)

Excuse me, but I am lost. One thing is that you don't open that hand, fair enough, but implying that the hand is not close to having opening values opposite a take-out double of diamonds is going a bit far.

 

3♠ would be a serious underbid in my opinion.

 

Roland

[mr1303]

Marty Bergen said that a take-out double MUST show at least tolerance for unbid majors, no matter how strong. Doubling with a void spade is asking for trouble. A 1H overcall will virtually never end the auction.

[mike777]

Marty Bergen said that a take-out double MUST show at least tolerance for unbid majors, no matter how strong. Doubling with a void spade is asking for trouble. A 1H overcall will virtually never end the auction.

Some people, perhaps Miles in his new book?, claim you can never be too strong to overcall. ;).

 

Perfer 1H if my only other choice is x.

[P_Marlowe]

Marty Bergen said that a take-out double MUST show at least tolerance for unbid majors, no matter how strong. Doubling with a void spade is asking for trouble. A 1H overcall will virtually never end the auction.

Some people, perhaps Miles in his new book?, claim you can never be too strong to overcall. ;).

 

Perfer 1H if my only other choice is x.

Explain this to teammates, when it goes

Pass - (1D) - 1H - all pass

 

Sorry, there exists a upper limit for a one level

overcall, and the hand in question exceeds this.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: It is different, when it comes to overcalls at the 2 level, but

we are dealing with one level overcalls here.

[mike777]

Marty Bergen said that a take-out double MUST show at least tolerance for unbid majors, no matter how strong. Doubling with a void spade is asking for trouble. A 1H overcall will virtually never end the auction.

Some people, perhaps Miles in his new book?, claim you can never be too strong to overcall. :).

 

Perfer 1H if my only other choice is x.

Explain this to teammates, when it goes

Pass - (1D) - 1H - all pass

 

Sorry, there exists a upper limit for a one level

overcall, and the hand in question exceeds this.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: It is different, when it comes to overcalls at the 2 level, but

we are dealing with one level overcalls here.

I can explain easy, if 1h can be 23 hcp how can you pass partner with your hand? Partner if we agree to play this style please do not go off into your own little world, play our cc! Of course playing this style bid 4H also, but my poor bidding does not excuse partners.

[luis]

The North hand is a good example of one of my theories,

My theory is that there's not such a thing as a hand "between" 1s and 2s, I think that you must open either 2s or 1s depending on your style but you can't pass.

Luis

[mike777]

The North hand is a good example of one of my theories,

My theory is that there's not such a thing as a hand "between" 1s and 2s, I think that you must open either 2s or 1s depending on your style but you can't pass.

Luis

Why?

 

Why cannot you not pass with this hand?

I prefer my weak 2 bids to have hcp in the long suit, not with outside aces.

That seems very playable.

[luke warm]

luis' theory, and it doesn't have to be proved (that's why it's a theory)... i'd open the hand 2s also, but can't criticize pass

[helene_t]

I would have opened 2♠ with the North hand. Otherwise I would have overcalled 4♥ with the South hand allthough 1♥ would not be unreasoble. Double is not an option. If you desperately need a solution for this kind of hands, play old-fashioned strong cuebids.

[coyot]

I think there is plenty of room to differentiate and 4♠ is an overbid in this sense. What will you do with a better hand, one of almost opening values? (If your system does not handle it for some reason, that is...)

Excuse me, but I am lost. One thing is that you don't open that hand, fair enough, but implying that the hand is not close to having opening values opposite a take-out double of diamonds is going a bit far.

 

3♠ would be a serious underbid in my opinion.

 

Roland

I would open that hand, of course :)

 

But... a takeout double over diamonds promises support for majors, statistically 3 spades and 4-5 hearts... so the void is placed badly...

 

To the point...

p-1♦-x-p-?

 

There are several bids available for good hands with spades:

2♠,3♠,4♠,2♦.

 

Now, if this 7HCP hand with a badly placed void is worth game-jump, how would a 3♠ hand look like, if 2♠ promises (8)9+HCP?...

 

Also, imagine QJxxxx-Kx-Ax-xxx (and pretend that this hand does not qualify for any system opening). This hand is no doubt worth 4♠ against takeout double - and most likely is a trick stronger than the hand in question.

 

I don't really mind the intent of playing spade game against a regular takeout double, but the following points speak in favor of 3♠:

 

1) Partner will hardly pass anyway, unless his hand is ugly and minimal... such a 3♠ jump basically says that the hand is too good to jump to 2!

 

2) We're getting some protection and/or saving bidding space here in the case that partner has strong notrump or own-suit double.

 

Give partner Kx-AQx-Kx-AKQxxx and 6 clubs is laydown... but can he bid it after your jump to 4♠? What if you're void in clubs, not hearts? If you jump to 3♠, he will bid 4♣ and you have plenty of room to investigate the slam...

[flytoox]

I'll try to defend a little more:

 

A)

 

(1♦)-4♥ might not show weak hand, just too ugly?

 

Well, I don't want to give my partner guesses. While it has some merits to play bids with intent to preempt OR make (and hiding the true intent from opps), this is good when your partner does not NEED to know. If they bid 5♦ or 4♠, should he bid 5♥ or pass? Will you miss a slam if he passes and you double with the ugly hand?

 

I think that it is just a matter of agreement how to show a hand that would want to play 4♥. One of them is takeout double and then jump...

 

B)

 

The jump to 3-4♠. I see no reason to jump to 4♠ when I can jump to 3♠, telling partner that I have a good onesuiter, too good to jump to 2♠. And I don't want to jump to game with 6suiter and 7 HCP, when my void happens to be in a suit where partner most certainly has some values.

 

In other words: Paint me some hands that are not good enough to jump to game and too good to jump to 2♠. I think there is plenty of room to differentiate and 4♠ is an overbid in this sense. What will you do with a better hand, one of almost opening values? (If your system does not handle it for some reason, that is...)

Donot thinnk you can defend too much about the t/o dbl. The hand itself suffice to show why dbl is wrong. The key issue here is exactly you cannot handle a 4S call from pd. If your long suit is spade and have a void in heart. Then you can try to defend a t/o dbl. Even in that case, I would still prefer to overcall 4S.

[coyot]

Donot thinnk you can defend too much about the t/o dbl. The hand itself suffice to show why dbl is wrong. The key issue here is exactly you cannot handle a 4S call from pd. If your long suit is spade and have a void in heart. Then you can try to defend a t/o dbl. Even in that case, I would still prefer to overcall 4S.

That's the point I am trying to make - don't jump to 4♠ with the above hand - 3 will be enough...

 

What I want in competitive bidding:

 

1) Jumps to any level to be generally preempts (definitely not with a 20HCP hand with a void).

 

Case study: Imagine a hand with which you want to preempt opps with 4♥ against a passed partner and LHO bidding 1♦. Now, what is your partner supposed to do with two side aces? Bid a slam that does not make because opps have two aces as well? Don't think so. Yet, with a 20HCP hand like the below, you might easily miss a slam if you bid 4♥ to play.

 

2) Simple overcalls showing hands that are not good enough for game on their own.

 

Now, putting these two points together, there is no room for the hand in question in these two bids. That leaves cue-bid (which I prefer for 2suiters) and double. I have absolutely no problem showing a hand that is 1 trick short of a game via takeout double.

 

And I think that it is wholly OK to sacrifice one of FOUR possible strong bids with spades to prevent distasters like this. Don't you think that between 2♠, 3♠ and cue-bid, there is enough room to describe all spade hands that were not good enough to open 1♠ or not suitable for preempt? Don't tell me there are SO many hand types (that cannot be opened) that you need FOUR different strong bids for them.

 

Yes, I am willing to take the risk that I jump to 3♠ with the above hand and my partner with unattractive values passes. So, we will miss a 9card fit game on 19-21 HCP, that is not the end of the world. And it is a fair price for bidding a few good slams correctly.

[helene_t]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

 

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:

(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl

(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣

a.p.

 

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

[Jurek S]

I'd open 2♠, pard doubled after pass - 1♦ so from his side it seems that 4♠ rebid is almost impossible (no 6+ ♠ - that's why I'd open).

[coyot]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

 

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:

(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl

(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣

a.p.

 

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

I know this can cause problems...

 

One possible solution - don't play 2-suiters on reopen (no need to preempt) - so use cue-bid for onesuiters that are too good for takeout.

 

Playing strong onesuiter doubles only requires partner to calculate with such a possibility. If you have 20HCP with 0634 shape, overcalling 1♥ may cost you a game, because the opps won't reopen the bidding.

 

My first bridge book said that takeout is 12+ or 15+ with own suit or 18+ anything.

 

I've changed the numbers, basically making it 12+ with support for unbid suits or 18+ anything (and 16+ balanced as I like Polish NT overcall), so my suit overcalls range from 8HCP to some 17HCP... And that is wide enough to put a pressure on partner as when to bid in order to not miss a good game.

 

Deciding between double and overcall is influenced by opps as well. I can safely overcall 1♥ with the above hand if I know that the opps will 99% reopen with the spades that they seem to have (my p will not have a 6card unless with 4 hearts B)) - but with old ladies that frequently pass behind an overcall with 8-9 HCP, I simply cannot afford the risk of playing 1♥+3 :), so I MUST bid it as a strong one-suiter... and if partner jumps in spades, pity... I might then play 4♥ down a few if he has only spade values... but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

 

It is all a matter of dividing bidding space among various hand types.

 

The problem with spade jump is obvious - the difference between a hand that would bid 3♠ and a hand that would bid 4♠ is next to nil. (To all those who advocate jump to 4♠ - tell me, what less would you want to have in the hand to jump to 3♠ only (and yet consider jump to 2♠ a bad bid).

 

The problem with overcall vs. takeout is basically the same. You either overload the overcall OR overload the double. Overloading the double IMHO provides much more space later in the bidding to clarify.

Especially in modern aggressive bidding, you need light overcall. You need preempts as much - and that means that hands that really want to make 4♥ with little outside help NEED to be bid somehow else - and the double is the only free spot.