Yet another takeout double trouble

[Chamaco]

All white, matchpoints

You are South and hold

 

AKxx-void-KQTxxx-Txx

 

LHO, east deals and opens 1D !

 

E...........S...........W...........N

1♦...........p...........1♥...........p

2♣.........DBL(1)....2♥..........3♠(2)

p...........p(3).........4♥...........all pass (4)

 

(1) Is this double takeout ?

I assumed so. My pard also saw it at t/o.

 

(2) Would you play this as invitational or (semi)preemptive ?

I know some people would bid 3S as shutout and cue one of opps suits for inv+ hands.

I strongly suspected it to be (semi)preemptive, given the busy bidding, but assumed anyway it was an invitational hand.

 

(3) ANYWAYS, assuming pard is inviting, should I bid game ?

I thought my hand was minimum, because of all the wasted values in diamonds (pard is likely to be void), so I passed.

 

(4) should anyone double or balance?

Pard's hand was

Q9xxxx- Qxx- void - AJ9x

[whereagles]

1. According to Robson/Segal, it is take-out of clubs (& penalty of diams).

 

2. Preempt makes no sense because opps already exchanged all info they needed. I'd take that as a distributional, LOTT-based bid, though not necessarily strong in terms of hcp. With inv+ hand pard could always cue 3♣ (non-club bids are NATURAL).

 

3. I would bid 4. All I need is 1 or 2 good cards, which pard should have if he's inviting.

 

4. A straight 4 with you pard's hand seems fair. He probably didn't bid that because he wasn't 100% sure what double was.. lol.

[pbleighton]

Agree with whereeagles, except that you partner should have bid the first time around - 1S or 2S - I would have bid 2S.

 

Peter

[Chamaco]

2. Preempt makes no sense because opps already exchanged all info they needed. I'd take that as a distributional, LOTT-based bid, though not necessarily strong in terms of hcp.

That's what I meant, a sort of LOTT-based bid.

"Preempt" was not the right term.

[flytoox]

1), club takeout. This is standard I suppose. But I prefer to overcall 1S rather than pass first.

2) Invitational. There is no point to play it as preemptive as opps are apprently die of 2H.

3) I would raise to 4S. We have lots of trumps and we are not worrying opp's crossruff.

4) I think pd should dbl. From pd's perspective, your dbl should promise heart. Plus, either 2H or 4H is wrong bid. I will take 4H as wrong bid and hence dbl it.

[coyot]

Unless you have any specific agreement, takeout double into ONE suit is a nonsense ;).

 

I would understand it as penalty/lead director on clubs. The most likely hand would be 4 spades, 4+clubs and heart shortage (which would explain lack of takeout double over 1♦.).

 

I mean, where is the sense of takeout into one suit? If partner does not have this suit, what is he supposed to do? I either bid 2♠ (if I feel that it is necessary to re-open in this position, which I don't think is the case anyway) or I pass.

 

Opps can still have a game of 3NT with neither side having a good suit - and in that case, a double of 2♣ will be folllowed by redouble and we'll start running then.

 

My diamond values are pretty bad, anyway...

 

And, I know that if the bidding after my pass continues with any weak bid (2♦,2♥), my partner WILL bid 2♠ on a 4card IF he has any working values ;).

 

And he would surely bid 2♠ over 2♥ with the hand in question.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi

 

1) I am old fashioned, so penalty

2) Assuming the X is for take out,

3S is neither inv. nor preemptiv,

the bid tries to buy the contract

it promises also 5 spades

3) I pass,

4) after this auction I double, the auction

from west makes no sense what

ever, maybe he fools me, but if the guy goes -X

undoubled, I am not going to stand this

 

Of course the question I would ask, does E/W play

WJS

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Chamaco]

4) after this auction I double, the auction

    from west makes no sense what

    ever, maybe he fools me, but if the guy goes -X

    undoubled, I am not going to stand this

 

West is a weak player, her bidding not reliable upon. No inference available from her bidding (east instead is a real expert, and extremely disciplined in bidding; he is trying hard to teach bridge to his wife ;) ).

 

    Of course the question I would ask, does E/W play

    WJS

 

No. jumpshifts would be strong and no fancy agreements.

[pclayton]

I'd probably make a 1S overcall with either hand.

 

The double is takeout, but I expect a 4351 shape is more typical. I probably wouldn't make the call, and would bid 2D if I felt the need to jump into a live potential misfit auction (I don't).

 

Your pard's 3S is a nice call.

 

You have a 100% clear 4S call over 3S. Actually I'd probably Q the heart void - give pard the QC and its a nice slam.

[the hog]

Why did you not bid 1S? Why did your partner not bid 1S? Both of these bids are clear cut imo.

The double is penalty - there is only 1 suite left to show, but now over 3S you have an easy 4S bid. How much easier this all is after a 1S overcall. Bridge is a bidder's game, you have to get in early.

[mike777]

Gee partner not bidding spades over 1heart makes this game very hard.

Bid early and then shut up seems to make the game so much easier.

 

The problem, and tonight's team game seemed to show this again was:

1) Bidding early with a very borderline hand but then not being quiet with nothing extra.

2) Because this hand was a disaster, my guess was, this inhibited a second hand in the match that was not opened but should have been and not only could have been opened but with extra shape deserved a second bid consideration.

3) Such disasters can lead one to make even more mistakes, such as being afraid to double the opp when one has 5 trumps.

4) Hamman's ability and other top class players ability to let one hand go and move on is truly amazing.

[mikestar]

Partner should have overcalled 1♠.

 

Even playing R/S this is the wrong hand for a takeout double. The void in hearts is just not right. This double primarily asks for spades, but shows a penalty double in diamonds and should have at least tolerance in hearts--the sort of hand where we may belong in hearts even though partner doesn't have a good enough heart suit to bid 2♥ over 1♥.

 

It isn't obvious what your best bid is--pass then double risks partner playing you for something in hearts and doubling a making 4♥. Pass then 2♦ risks burying a spade fit, pass then 2♠ can get you too high on a misfit. Partner will know you only have four, but what West might have four spades and east might have three--then you probably end up in 3♦.

 

Passing twice would be my choice by a very slight margin, though 1♠ directly over 1♦ may work well if partner fits spades, and may escape cheaply if he doesn't.

 

For me the tiebraker is knowing that all our side suits are likely to break badly.

[coyot]

Why did you not bid 1S? Why did your partner not bid 1S? Both of these bids are clear cut imo.

The double is penalty - there is only 1 suite left to show, but now over 3S you have an easy 4S bid. How much easier this all is after a 1S overcall. Bridge is a bidder's game, you have to get in early.

100% agree.

If you're not willing to overcall on a spade 4-card, you don't deserve to get into the bidding.

 

And, the golden rule:

NEVER make a takeout double if there is only one suit remaining (unless you have conventional agreements).

 

Any sane person, seeing the above bidding, will follow this line of reasoning:

He did not overcall in spades. He does not want to reopen in spades when opps bid three other suits, he does not want to let ME reopen with spades, should 2♣ be passed to me... therefore he has clubs and the double is for business - they surely have a misfit and not too many points.

[whereagles]

Any sane person, seeing the above bidding, will follow this line of reasoning:

He did not overcall in spades. He does not want to reopen in spades when opps bid three other suits, he does not want to let ME reopen with spades, should 2♣ be passed to me... therefore he has clubs and the double is for business - they surely have a misfit and not too many points.

This reasoning may be ok, but I wouldn't follow it because pard may be on a different wavelenght. For instance, pard may also think "if pard has clubs, why didn't he bid 1D-2C?"

 

By the way, pass + double is a common way to deal with canapé openings, so I don't agree this double HAS to be penalties. It can be so if you agree that with pard, but without any agreements, I'd be weary to take it as penalties. And take-out with 1 suit left isn't nonsense. Especially if you open 3-card minors.

[coyot]

Any sane person, seeing the above bidding, will follow this line of reasoning:

He did not overcall in spades. He does not want to reopen in spades when opps bid three other suits, he does not want to let ME reopen with spades, should 2♣ be passed to me...  therefore he has clubs and the double is for business - they surely have a misfit and not too many points.

This reasoning may be ok, but I wouldn't follow it because pard may be on a different wavelenght. For instance, pard may also think "if pard has clubs, why didn't he bid 1D-2C?"

 

By the way, pass + double is a common way to deal with canapé openings, so I don't agree this double HAS to be penalties. It can be so if you agree that with pard, but without any agreements, I'd be weary to take it as penalties. And take-out with 1 suit left isn't nonsense. Especially if you open 3-card minors.

He might not have good enough clubs to overcall at 2nd level. :-)

 

We're not talking about canape openings here - that is quite a distant topic.

 

Sorry, if you open on 3-card minor, you usually DON'T rebid the other minor.

1♦-p-1♥-p

2♣-x

 

Don't tell me that partner seriously wants to play in spades OR diamonds, when the declarer has effectively shown 5 diamonds!

 

Of course there might be 3-suited bidding where the double is reopen/take-out, but not when opps bid the suits seriously!

[whereagles]

Well, playing in diams/spades certainly isn't impossible if opener has 1444 or xx45 (some play 1D-1x-2C as possibly longer clubs).

 

Besides, if pard hasn't good enough clubs to overcall at the 2 level, then he probably hasn't got a good penalty double of 2C as well :(

[Al_U_Card]

I subscribe to the principle "when the opps are bidding 3 suits, don't come in to the auction".

 

I take this hand to be loaded in the minors with a spade tolerance and enough H shortage so that a 1 NT overcall was unacceptable. This is confirmed by the pass of the invitational 3S bid (likely to have at least 5 spades).

 

The pass by responder of the 4H bid shows that his H holding may be long but is anaemic at best.

[Fluffy]

I'm not sure if the double of 2♣ is take out or not, but even if it is take/out, why did you use it?

The only suit you want to play in is ♠, so bid it if you like, you won't get very happy of partner starts bidding ♥.

 

Would overcall 1♠ quicky, maybe even if my minors were switched.

[coyot]

Well, playing in diams/spades certainly isn't impossible if opener has 1444 or xx45 (some play 1D-1x-2C as possibly longer clubs).

 

Besides, if pard hasn't good enough clubs to overcall at the 2 level, then he probably hasn't got a good penalty double of 2C as well :unsure:

1) I would not want to play 2♦ when I know that trumps break badly and have to push my luck, relying on the 4card with declarer... Why not lead a club and prevent him from diamond ruffs in that case?

 

2) Imagine holding something like AJ10x-xx-Kx-KJ1086. You're looking at 4-5 tricks against a club contract. Would you overcall in clubs with this hand? Some would not, because there is no need to hurry into the bidding (especially with two suits to offer - wait what you hear...)

 

(To the latter point - there are MANY cases where your hand gets upgraded during the bidding - and this is a typical case. Overcalling 2♣ can wait to see whether your values are working or not, typically depending on what major suit your LHO offers.)

[whereagles]

2) Imagine holding something like AJ10x-xx-Kx-KJ1086. You're looking at 4-5 tricks against a club contract. Would you overcall in clubs with this hand? Some would not, because there is no need to hurry into the bidding (especially with two suits to offer - wait what you hear...)

Maybe I overcall 2C, maybe not. Depends.. (1D-1S also possible, btw). In any case, doubling 2C for penalties won't do much more than warning opps to play the hand some suit else.

 

While I understand sometimes you should pass RHO's opening with a fair hand, my experience tells me the earlier I butt-in, the better.

[coyot]

I was wrong with my theory of the double being penalties. I got it explained properly by a friend yesterday that this kind of double shows a good opening hand with diamonds (trapping pass) - so it is sort-of-takeout, yet it gets converted to penalty quite often.

[flytoox]

I was wrong with my theory of the double being penalties. I got it explained properly by a friend yesterday that this kind of double shows a good opening hand with diamonds (trapping pass) - so it is sort-of-takeout, yet it gets converted to penalty quite often.

Get a copy of Dbl!: New meaning for an old tool by Lawrence. It has very celar explanation for this kind situation.

[whereagles]

I was wrong with my theory of the double being penalties. I got it explained properly by a friend yesterday that this kind of double shows a good opening hand with diamonds (trapping pass) - so it is sort-of-takeout, yet it gets converted to penalty quite often.

You were not "wrong": you can play it for penalties if you want. The point is whether that strategy is better than take-out of clubs with good diams (probably not) :)