How would you bid this

[sceptic]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sk76hadqt954caq42&w=st842h765dk2ckjt6&e=sj953hj98dj87c873&s=saqhkqt432da63c95]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♣    Pass  1♥

 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♦

 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♥

 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

this is how I bid it, comments on that please and also how do you bid it in your favorite system

 

2 D was game force NMF

[coyot]

Our system:

1♦-1♥ - (better minor - F1 )

2♣-2♠ - 5-4 or 4441 - GF

2NT-3♥ - stopper - 6card or good 5card.

3NT - pass (no interest, denies doubleton honor in hearts).

 

What does 1♣ opener mean in your system? highly strange with 5 diamonds...

[mike777]

1nt=2d

2h=4h

p

 

1nt=14-16

2h=deny super accept... I play you need more than 1trump to superaccept :).

4h=mild slam try. ( 6 loser hand across from a 14-16 nt opener and no super accept).

[luke warm]

1♦ : 1♥

2♣ : 2♠ (4sf)

2NT : 3♥

3NT

 

probably how it'd go in 2/1... in weiss

 

1♦ : 1NT (10+, <4 diamonds)

2NT* : 3♥

3NT

 

*=5/4 minors, 15-17

[hrothgar]

1nt=2d

2h=4h

p

 

1nt=14-16

2h=deny super accept... I play you need more than 1trump to superaccept :).

4h=mild slam try. ( 6 loser hand across from a 14-16 nt opener and no super accept).

Agree with Mikes auction...

 

Hand strikes me as slightly too strong to open 1♦ and rebid in clubs...

[the hog]

Agree with Jimmy's auction.

[Gerben42]

Comment 1: 1♣? Did I miscount or does this hand have more ♦s than ♣?

Comment 2: 1NT? With a singleton major you are begging for a Burn's Law violation.

 

1♦ (showing 4 cards for me but doesn't make a difference on the hand)

- 1♥ (shows hearts :))

2♣ (why distort when you can show your hand honestly?)

- 3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

3NT (promise ♠ stopper)

- Pass (tada!)

[mikeh]

If you open 1N with this hand, please alert! You can do this once, but after that you and your partner have a deemed understanding and the opps should be told that 1N does not deny a singleton.

 

This is an easy hand in any standard method:

 

1♦ 1♥

2♣ 2♠

2N 3♥

3♠ 3N

 

2♣ shows 5-4 or better, in the minors and does not deny a powerful hand: this is nowhere near a maximum for the sequence.

 

2♠ is fourth suit, gf

 

2N is natural, but may be based on 2=2=5=4 with say Kx xx Axxxx KQxx

 

3♥ forces to game and shows 6+♥

 

3♠ shows doubt about 3N: usually only one ♠ stopper, or some other reason to suspect that 3N may not be best... here it is the combination of the ♥A, the solitary ♠ stopper and the slight extra values.

 

3N shows ♠ are under control, and that responder is not strong enough to mount a slam try on this misfit sequence. Do not ignore the 'misfit' issue: the South hand is not as strong as it looks, once opener shows a moderate hand with the minors and no ♥ fit.

 

Yes, I know that slam makes on the hand, but it is a bad contract. If your problem is 'how to get to slam', you are going to be a bad bidder:) You should be happy to stay in game.

[EricK]

Is 6♦ a bad contract? Certainly not the worst slam I've ever got to!

 

Not sure I would get to it though.

 

1♦ 1♥

2♣ 2♠

2NT 3♥

3NT(or 4♥) P

 

looks normal.

 

But the totally natural Stone Age Acol auction:

 

1♦ 2♥

3♣ 3NT

4NT 6♦

 

looks kinda believable.

 

Eric

[pbleighton]

"If you open 1N with this hand, please alert! You can do this once, but after that you and your partner have a deemed understanding and the opps should be told that 1N does not deny a singleton."

 

Untrue. You only alert if you have a method to find out whether pd opened with a singleton, or if you routinely open with a singleton. Opening with a singleton ace doesn't constitute "routinely".

 

Peter

[han]

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

[mike777]

.. in weiss

 

1♦ : 1NT (10+, <4 diamonds)

2NT* : 3♥

3NT

 

*=5/4 minors, 15-17

Harder in Weiss, I will think more about a diamond slam try.

2nt=14-17 and 5 d and 4-5 clubs.

 

Now I may rebid 3H and over 3nt I can pass or bid 4d slam try.

Or, over 2nt I can bid 3D game force.

 

In general Weiss is not enamored of 5-3 slam fits so I may just give up and play 3nt but this is one more example where judgement really slaps you in the face when playing Weiss.

 

At imps I may be tempted to make a D slam try, perhaps at MP just give up and play 3nt.

 

edit, yes alert 1nt opening since it is often offshape, agree, but a stiff is rare.

[mike777]

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

ya it does sound confusing.

 

what do you bid with:

6hcp and 6hearts?

8 hcp and 6 hearts?

11 hcp and 6 hearts?

 

if 1d=2h =0-5

and

1d=1h

2c=2h=invite

 

what the heck do you do with more than 5hcp but less than invite hcp?

 

I can only guess you go through fourth suit forcing with 6 hearts and invite hand in hearts and rebid 2h with less than invite?

so 1d=1h=2c=2s=3c=3h=invite but 1d=1h=2c=3h=game force?

[EricK]

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

 

Eric

[mike777]

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

 

Eric

that cannot be expert european bidding...that makes 1d=2h too wide a range. zero to almost invite.

[sceptic]

I thought slam was bad to bid even if it makes, just curious how you would bid it

[coyot]

No, the idea is as follows:

 

1m-2M weak jump shift. I play it as 6-7card, 2-5 HCP.

(Partner usually passes even with 18-19 balanced, only a hand with good support and a shortness bids something)

 

1m-1M-rebid-2M - very nonforcing 6card (usually up to 9 HCP)

 

1m-1M-rebid-3M - almost GF. (Partner passes only with extremely unsuitable hand - minimum, singleton trump)

 

1m-1M-rebid-GF or a new forcing suit-rebid-3M - natural...

 

The last two variants can be merged together as GF, but I've been grateful a few times for having an invitational hand that specifically says "partner, if your hand is good, I want to play in my major, but if it is bad, 3NT is not a good idea".

[P_Marlowe]

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

 

Eric

that cannot be expert european bidding...that makes 1d=2h too wide a range. zero to almost invite.

Hi,

 

Both meanings are around, I disscussed it, with two players,

who played once or twice at internation events, one said

inv., the other said force.

 

For what its worth:

1) The classic meaning for 3H is game force, just ask

Alvin Roth.

2) It depends a lot upon your partnership aggreements:

How weak, can the weak jumb shift be.

Is it 4/5-7/8 or 2-6 (*).

If it is 4/5-7/8, than 3H will show something around 12+,

i.e. it gets forcing, if it shows 2-6, 3H is still inv.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts have a higher

frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the

weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the

mathematics.

[helene_t]

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts  have a higher

frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the

weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the

mathematics.

Depends how you define your strong jump shifts. Dutch beginners learn 12+ with a decent 6-card. That's quite frequent. My English beginner's book define it as 16+ and a suit playable opposite a void. That's different. Don't think it has much to do with mathematics, btw. I'm a mathematician and I would not volunteer to write a formula for such probabilities. I would rather make simulations or analysis of tournament records.

 

Anyway, the idea is that with a 6-card major you bid something like this (feel free to adjust one or two points if you like):

0-2: Pass

3-7: Jump immediately

8-11: Bid and rebid

12+: Bid and jump rebid

 

Some play 3-7 and 8-11 reversed. You could also play New Suit Invitational (similar to Pavlicek's method): The limit hands (9-11) goes via a relay. Weak hands bid and rebid, GF hands bid and jump rebid.

 

I didn't know this was called European style. Learned something new today.

[Gerben42]

Well explained, Helene. I didn't know it was called European style either. Anyway around here either this or reverse F responses are played for 1m - 2M.

 

Why should you play like this:

 

1. It follows naturally from the philosophy of bidding - jump with weak hands, describe cheaply with strong hands. This is a principle one can understand and teach.

 

2. WJS win when you have a WJS and SJS win when you have a SJS just by getting your hand off your chest in one bid (every convention works for the hand it was designed for, except Mini-Roman). WJS come up more than SJS so this should be an advantage

 

So far you can say, well squat, SJS help my slam bidding I'll stick to them. But:

 

3. WJS have great advantages when you don't bid them! One of them is that 3♥ is GF in the auction 1♦ - 1♥ - (not 1NT) - 3♥. Another big one is the same auction but responder rebids 2♥. This is invitational.

In effect this means that you are on the 2-level with your invitational values and misfit instead of the 3-level. Guess what: if you are in your 6-1 fit with 22/23 HCP most of the time 2M is hard enough!

[Chamaco]

1nt=2d

2h=4h

p

Ditto, I'd bid like Mike even in a 15-17 framework.

 

4441 and 5431 (no 54 major) with stiff honor are often better described as balanced.

[kgr]

[P_Marlowe]

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts  have a higher

frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the

weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the

mathematics.

Depends how you define your strong jump shifts. Dutch beginners learn 12+ with a decent 6-card. That's quite frequent. My English beginner's book define it as 16+ and a suit playable opposite a void. That's different. Don't think it has much to do with mathematics, btw. I'm a mathematician and I would not volunteer to write a formula for such probabilities. I would rather make simulations or analysis of tournament records.

Hi,

 

right.

 

If you add 2 suiter, with support for openers suit

and strong NT type hands, i.e. play something ala

Soloway Jumb shifts, you will easily match the freq.

of weak jumb shifts with only 2-6 HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[flytoox]

1D-1H

2C-2S

3NT-4NT

..Is 4NT quantitative?

We play 4C gerber and 4NT RKC. Because of the wide range that opener can have (14-17) it seems very useful to play 4NT quantitative here. Most logic after 3NT would be:

- 4C/4D: fit and forcing (looking for slam)

- 4H: 6-card and strong. Interested in slam if opener still as some extras.

- 4S: Ace asking (or RKC for hearts, because other fits you can set via 4C/4D)

- 4NT: quantitative.

==> The problem is: How to make sure your partner has the same ideas about these bids. Any rules (easy and good :D ) you can put on paper for your partnership to define when 4NT is quantitative or RKC?

I think this is the best sequence. After 2S, opener should jump to 3N to show extra. After 3N, I think responder can rebid 4D. Opener now can bid 4H. I dont think I can find slam finally. This is a difficult one.

[Chamaco]

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts  have a higher

frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the

weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the

mathematics.

If weak = 0-6 hcp, then I wholeheartedly agree.

 

I agreed to play wjs = 0-6 for about 2 years and it came up only twice, whereas hands suitable for strong jumpshifts came up about 15 times.

 

And it's a myth that "if you have a hand suitable for SJS, you can bid them slowly", because you have a hard time to describe your honor concentration.

 

The power of SJS is to be able to set trumps immediately, below the level of game: if you start slowly, your pard will always "refuse" your offer to play there, and you'll reach game without being able to check for side controls.

 

Since when we adopted SJS, our slam biding has improved dramatically, without losing much on the 0-6 wjs.

 

Things would be more shaded is the jumpshift was slightly stronger (say 4-8/9 hcp), but then it would easy to bid these hands going slowly... :D