Who overbid?

[han]

[hv=d=w&v=b&w=skjxxxh10xxdqjckqx&e=sqxxxhkqxdxxxxcax]266|100|Scoring: MP

pass-1D

1S-2S

4S

 

Down one.[/hv]

 

East-west open light.

[Walddk]

East did when he opened! Unless you play 10-12 or 11-13 NT this is not an opening hand. Don't open balanced 11 counts (especially not without intermediates).

 

No blame to West. He had a sound raise to game looking at the 5th spade and ♦QJ.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like the opening bid made by

East, and I give East the blame, but ...

 

The raise to 4S is aggressive, espesically

if the requirements for 3rd seat openings

are weakend, (... you claim to open light,

so this means a 3rd seat opening may be

garbage^2).

 

=> If you play Drury, I dont, but I do not open

garbage, this would have been the perfect time

for it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pbleighton]

"East did when he opened! Unless you play 10-12 or 11-13 NT this is not an opening hand."

 

I would agree, except that this is a third seat opening. As such, it is OK because of 4 spades, though it is marginal.

 

West's 4S is an overbid opposite a third hand opener. It would have been fine opposite a first or second hand opener (though perhaps a bit aggressive depending on how light they open). I don't think it's a terrible bid, though.

 

Peter

[mikeh]

This depends on partnership style, altho I voted for East as the overbidder.

 

I agree with opening the east hand: indeed, I might well open 1♠ in third seat. That would fetch a drury bid (preferably one showing 4+ support) and a rebid denying opening values. West's hand is so soft, which is why he passed originally, so he has no problem accepting a signoff.

 

After a 1♦ opening bid, east should be happy that:

 

i) he has got past both opps once

 

ii) his partner's response justified the opening bid

 

So he should pass. Yes, the opps might balance, but then he can freely compete to 2♠, and it is unlikely that the opps will go to the 3-level, given that they have both passed already.

 

My only reservation is whether the partnership has agreed that east must raise with 4 trump, as a preemptive move to prevent a balance. For me, the single raise shows a decent opening hand, and West's ♦ honours and 5th trump fully warrant bidding game. If east must raise with 4 trump, then west should make a game try, but I dislike that style. It obviates much of the benefit of light 3rd seat openings, and is rarely needed when you hold the master suit, and hence will usually win later competitive auctions anyway.

[Double !]

"East did when he opened! Unless you play 10-12 or 11-13 NT this is not an opening hand."

 

I would agree, except that this is a third seat opening. As such, it is OK because of 4 spades, though it is marginal.

 

Peter

I agree with Peter, especially playing matchpoints. 3rd seat, prepared to pass any response that partner makes, and holding the master suit. IMO, east erred by raising spades immediately instead of passing 1S and then raising if necessary.

[reisig]

Opening in 3rd seat is OK...but then must Pass partner's response - so I blame East - although ..West shoud not be without any blame...but FAR less.

[awm]

I think the real question here is, especially since they open light, why did west not open his 12 hcp hand with a five card spade suit? It seems easy to stay out of game on an auction starting with 1♠ by west and a limit raise by east.

 

East's opening in third seat seems fairly normal, unless they open extra-conservatively in third seat because of opening light in 1st/2nd. The chance of finding a major suit fit is excellent and one doesn't really want to pass this hand out.

 

Since west doesn't think he has an opening bid, leaping to game opposite a third seat opening seems like an overbid to me.

[Double !]

I think the real question here is, especially since they open light, why did west not open his 12 hcp hand with a five card spade suit? It seems easy to stay out of game on an auction starting with 1♠ by west and a limit raise by east.

 

East's opening in third seat seems fairly normal, unless they open extra-conservatively in third seat because of opening light in 1st/2nd. The chance of finding a major suit fit is excellent and one doesn't really want to pass this hand out.

 

Since west doesn't think he has an opening bid, leaping to game opposite a third seat opening seems like an overbid to me.

Maybe because he had an 8-loser hand and was somewhat quacky.

[Elianna]

I think the real question here is, especially since they open light, why did west not open his 12 hcp hand with a five card spade suit? It seems easy to stay out of game on an auction starting with 1♠ by west and a limit raise by east.

 

East's opening in third seat seems fairly normal, unless they open extra-conservatively in third seat because of opening light in 1st/2nd. The chance of finding a major suit fit is excellent and one doesn't really want to pass this hand out.

 

Since west doesn't think he has an opening bid, leaping to game opposite a third seat opening seems like an overbid to me.

Maybe because he had an 8-loser hand and was somewhat quacky.

Well, he seemed to believe his hand was worth an opener later! And if you don't "open light" with this hand, why bother to play light openers at all?

 

I think that West made the mistake I see a lot of people making (myself included): When underbidding a hand in the first round or so, they then try to overbid to catch up.

 

I can't remember the exact quote from J. Meckstroth, but he's said that it's better to overbid on the first and then try to put the brakes on in subsequent auctions than it is to underbid and then try playing catch-up. Whenever I remember to abide by this it works out well.

[Double !]

Matchpoints, Vul., 2 controls, 25 (maybe 24) Zar pts, 8-losers. Is this an opening even playing light openers? Shouldn't there be some trick-taking potential still present even with light openers? OK, maybe that is the bidding dinosaur in me asking. Always willing to listen and learn.

 

I suspect that west bashed 4S (when east didn't pass 1S- a key issue) because of having 5 decent spades (playable opposite Qxx or Axx, and an honor combination in diamonds, east's bid suit.

[awm]

I don't think passing 1♠ with four card support is generally winning tactics. Game is actually surprisingly good opposite:

 

AJTxx

Axx

xx

xxx

 

Presumably not an opening hand for most of us. Passing 1♠ also lets the opponents in to find a fit in clubs or diamonds and perhaps push us as high as the three level.

 

The fact is, west has a quacky 8-loser hand. I don't think this hand has become dramatically better opposite a third seat opening. East may well be raising as a blocking action, after all, they open light so there should be no passed hand which is about to force game in this auction.

 

If the west hand wasn't good enough to open, it's not good enough to game force opposite a (possibly light) third seat opening.

[pbleighton]

"I don't think passing 1♠ with four card support is generally winning tactics."

 

Agree 100%.

 

Peter

[mike777]

I think the real question here is, especially since they open light, why did west not open his 12 hcp hand with a five card spade suit? It seems easy to stay out of game on an auction starting with 1♠ by west and a limit raise by east.

 

East's opening in third seat seems fairly normal, unless they open extra-conservatively in third seat because of opening light in 1st/2nd. The chance of finding a major suit fit is excellent and one doesn't really want to pass this hand out.

 

Since west doesn't think he has an opening bid, leaping to game opposite a third seat opening seems like an overbid to me.

Maybe because he had an 8-loser hand and was somewhat quacky.

Well, he seemed to believe his hand was worth an opener later! And if you don't "open light" with this hand, why bother to play light openers at all?

 

I think that West made the mistake I see a lot of people making (myself included): When underbidding a hand in the first round or so, they then try to overbid to catch up.

 

I can't remember the exact quote from J. Meckstroth, but he's said that it's better to overbid on the first and then try to put the brakes on in subsequent auctions than it is to underbid and then try playing catch-up. Whenever I remember to abide by this it works out well.

Wonderful comments, very well said. This is one of the best posts I have seen in weeks, thank you.

 

West must open, good grief and then east shows 4 card limit raise, no problem.

 

As for the east hand....that is clear opener VUL in first seat let alone third seat, otherwise why play lite opening bids. YOu still get to 3s since west knows east opens on junk and west has junk. ( 1d=1s=2s=game try, decline and end up in 3s.) See Roland's excellent comment about lack of 10's and 9's etc. Yes this opener is a piece of junk.

[Walddk]

I do not see the point in opening light in 3rd suit with a minor and xxxx. If that is not misleading partner, I don't know what is. I would have opened the West hand, yes, but I fully understand that he upgrades ♦QJ next ... and spade #5 of course.

 

One thing is to open light 3rd in hand, another thing is to do it on xxxx. If you really must open that hand, I much prefer 1♠. Passing 1♠ later is not an option in my book with 4-card support.

 

And after the raise to 2♠ you want West to tip-toe and say to himself: "Well, I'd better go easy now. What if partner opened on a balanced 11 count and 4 pips"?. Sorry, that is not on in my world.

 

You all seem to be influenced by looking at both hands here. In real life that is not an option.

 

Roland

[han]

I was west, and decided not to open even though we open light. I think this is a quite a bad hand.

 

I thought that when partner raised to 2S he showed a full opening hand. My doubleton QJ of diamonds suddenly didn't look so bad since they were in partner's suit, and my hand now seemed worth an opening hand, so bidding game seemed best.

 

Some people think that East should never pass 1S with 4-card support. Others think that 2S should show an honest opening bid. My partner and I clearly didn't agree with eachother.

[mike777]

And after the raise to 2♠ you want West to tip-toe and say to himself: "Well, I'd better go easy now. What if partner opened on a balanced 11 count and 4 pips"?. Sorry, that is not on in my world.

 

Roland

That in a nutshell is the bidding debate. Add this to Elianna's comments and you have a wonderful discussion.

 

Of course this is all for fun.

 

We know the real players are winning and beating us with their play, defense and counting out the hands. ;).

[Double !]

I was west, and decided not to open even though we open light. I think this is a quite a bad hand.

 

I thought that when partner raised to 2S he showed a full opening hand. My doubleton QJ of diamonds suddenly didn't look so bad since they were in partner's suit, and my hand now seemed worth an opening hand, so bidding game seemed best.

 

Some people think that East should never pass 1S with 4-card support. Others think that 2S should show an honest opening bid. My partner and I clearly didn't agree with eachother.

Hannie:

 

Don't intend to scare you but I would've bid the same way and would have drawn the same conclusions as you did. Uh oh. lol

 

DHL ;)

[mike777]

I was west, and decided not to open even though we open light. I think this is a quite a bad hand.

 

I thought that when partner raised to 2S he showed a full opening hand. My doubleton QJ of diamonds suddenly didn't look so bad since they were in partner's suit, and my hand now seemed worth an opening hand, so bidding game seemed best.

 

Some people think that East should never pass 1S with 4-card support. Others think that 2S should show an honest opening bid. My partner and I clearly didn't agree with eachother.

Hope this helps. Best bridge wishes.

 

When my buddy taught his junky opening style to me we discussed in depth, why, what was the theory behind it, the goals, the pluses and minuses.

Where those goals achievable and if so worthwhile?

Did the rest of the structure make logical sense in achieving those goals?

 

Please note I did not know any 2/1. I was biased because I was taught/told by a couple of world champs that 2/1 was the worst system in the world and reading Lawrence and Hardy did not make me more comfortable. If anything I had a bias towards showing shape, 4 card majors and opening light but not this light.

 

Finally what the heck is an opening bid and what is a response?

Example 99.99% any 11 hcp in first, second and third seat any vul?

What 10 hcp and what vul?

What 8-9 hcp and what vul?

 

What is a response?

any ace?

any 6 hcp?

what 5 hcp?

what 4 hcp?

what zero hcp?

 

Hopefully discussing these in some detail will at least solve 99+ of these opening and responding issues and practice will iron out many of the remaining bugs.

 

It seems clear from your above response you have not gone through these steps with your partner. ;)

[Free]

Other: first West underbids by passing when opening light, and then jumps after a 3rd seat opening which might be light as well. Come on, get some discipline: open light, open solid, or react according to the seat where the opener is.

[POJC]

The Zar calculator says it's game potential. So its just bad luck...

 

If one chooses to open wests hand (24/25 Zar points),which is borderline also in Zar. According to Zar easts hand should be upgraded with one for q Trump and 3 for fit points= 27. 27+ opening hand equals min 52=game...

So bad luck

 

west passes:

After east opens west has at least 24 Zar points. After east raises spades wests hand gets even better with 5 card spades and 2 trump honours. Honours in partners suit also counts a little. So at least 24+3 (5th trump)+2(trump honours)+1(honours in P suit)=30. Even with a light opening we should go game.

So bad luck

 

All in all conclusion is bad luck.

In real bridge(no hindsight) we would never have the tools to find out that our diamond honours are nearly worthless and that the honours are in the wrong suits.

Remove club queen and exchange Q of Diamonds with king (same Zar points) and we have 50% chance to make instead. This can not be estimated in real life. Everybody who says that they won't reach 4S is biding in hindsight and not like they would do at the table...

[coyot]

If you decide to open light in 3rd seat with such a bad hand (shape, no values in bid suit), pass the 1♠ response.

 

I see absolutely no need to raise. Your partner is a passed hand. What are the chances of you missing a 22 HCP game if you're balanced? You have the boss suit, so you can afford to pass - and compete later.

 

West, with his maximum hand and supposedly valuable QJ♦ is right to bid game.

[han]

Other: first West underbids by passing when opening light, and then jumps after a 3rd seat opening which might be light as well. Come on, get some discipline: open light, open solid, or react according to the seat where the opener is.

Yessir! :)

 

I think that my jump to game was a reaction to partner's raise, not partner's opening.

[coyot]

And I don't think I would have reached 4♠ at the table :) - and it is not hindsight.

 

If I want to open light in 3rd seat, it is safer to open 1♠ - we play Two Way Reverse Drury so partner bids 2♦ showing 4card limit raise and I correct to 2♠. The hand IS substandard opener, no doubt about that. Partner, with extremely good hand, may still bid a new help-suit with this shape - and we'll sign off in 3♠.

[luke warm]

i'd have passed east in 3rd seat (or opened it 1nt) but then i'd almost certainly pass 1S by west.. i have a sub minimum opening and partner is a passed hand? 1S seems enough, regardless of the outcome on any one hand