this takes the cake

[rigour6]

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.

 

That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:

 

1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints. So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium. That's because I can't do late plays, I can't turn to a committee ruling. I have to balance my duty to the players asking me to do x, and y with my duty to the players who are just looking at the screen and wondering why they haven't moved to the next boards yet. Which brings me to my next point.

 

2. Unlike in f2f, the players can't see me or tell what I am doing. So I can be trying to solve your problem, but people don't know that, and everytime they message me there's a pop-up I have to move aside and get back to dealing with you. Sometimes 3 people call me from the same table. Sometimes the same guy calls me thrice but adds extra exclamation marks each time. Which brings me to my next point.

 

3. Certain people feel the anonymity of online allows them to be rude. You know those guys who are waiting while I solve your problem? Some of them aren't waiting patiently. They are sending me pop-ups and slowing me down. They are wondering how it is that 30 seconds have gone by and I haven't yet done the adjustment they requested. I COULD send a message to tourney to tell them what I am doing. Unlike in ftf I can't do that simultaneously with actually solving the problem. So I have to weight how informed I keep them with how fast i solve their problem.

 

4. Not everyone speaks any of the 3 languages I do, and even if they do I might try 2 before we get to the third.

 

 

Why do I say all this?

 

IF I ended up at a table where someone had overcalled 2 clubs or whatever and they had been asked to explain it and hadn't done so

AND time was a ticking

AND it seemed like language was a problem

 

There's a 50-50 chance I might type to the asking person, "It's a natural overcall."

 

Should I do that according to the rules? Of course not.

Would I do that in a ftf? Of course not?

 

So why would I do it in my free, 6 board tourney called "Ham Sandwich"?

Because it is a free 6 baord tourney called "Ham Sandwich", it is not the Bermuda Bowl qualifier.

 

 

 

Btw, anyone who feels TDs do a poor job is welcome to TD about 50 times,

You may still feel they do a poor job, but I guarantee you some new insights as to why.

[jillybean]

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more ;)

next topic please

[jillybean]

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done.  (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back.  I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape.  I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again.  This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.

 

 

jb

Doesn't work if there isn't a TD.

Well, you pay your money....

[candybar]

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.

That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:

1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints.  So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium.

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more :D

next topic please

The goal of this game is to play well, to enjoy a partnership game with a chosen partner, against opponents who are playing fair and using the same rules for everyone, the rules of bridge.

 

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not. Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

 

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum.

 

Here is an example quote: "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums. In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts. You speak for many players."

 

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues. However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

 

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions. As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

[jillybean]

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not.  Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

The problem is you are way off target with your ranting– do you really think the TD’s who read this forum fall into that category?

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum. 

 

Here is an example quote:  "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums.  In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts.  You speak for many players." 

 

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues.  However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

 

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions.  As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

Keep on ranting here about terrible TD’s, is it doing any good? All I think you will achieve is to intimidate people from trying out TD’ing and perhaps alienate the good ones who keep on reading this *&*(&^%

jb

[golfacer]

rigour6 Posted on Sep 2 2005, 12:26 PM

Btw, anyone who feels TDs do a poor job is welcome to TD about 50 times

 

I have directed 50+ tournaments on BBO since January 2004. Before I make my point, I should say that I appreciate the efforts of every director who attempts to direct a tournament well.

 

candybar Posted on Sep 2 2005, 09:46 PM

The goal of this game is to play well, to enjoy a partnership game with a chosen partner, against opponents who are playing fair and using the same rules for everyone, the rules of bridge.

 

I agree 100% with candybar. I would also hate to commit myself to a 14-board tournament, then learn after it starts that the director has no clue of how to fairly run a tournament, refuses to make adjustments, uses predealt hands without warning, or otherwise does something totally unexpected. I would also fully support a system (previously suggested by candybar) that recgonizes experienced BBO directors who are willing and able to conform to certain standards. Of course I don't think that I am perfect as a director, but I try to be perfect and am willing to learn if I do make a mistake.

[pigpenz]

refuses to make adjustments, uses predealt hands without warning, or otherwise does something totally unexpected.

I have directed about20-40 games also and its not an easy matter, there is no such thing as running a game on autopilot.

 

Golfacer...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt. I have often thought of making the hands with dealmaster pro and posting the hand records with deep finesse analysis on a web page after the game...just curious unless by predelt you mean goulash, where its better to not bid and just double the final contract.

[candybar]

The problem is you are way off target with your ranting– do you really think the TD’s who read this forum fall into that category?

No, I think the TDs who read this forum are mostly those who DO want to help improve the situation. The feedback I have been getting is very encouraging to this end. Some have offered to help. Some have said they would like to have some better training themselves.

 

I'm still hoping that the rest will come to realize it's a positive move to put a stop to the kind of silliness that I 'rant' about, and jump on the bandwagon to help.

[candybar]

...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt.

I think the problem is not predealt, but failing to post that it is predealt in the tournament description. IF someone doesn't want to play predealt, for whatever reason, they have a right to know before they register.

 

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

First of all, you cannot tell if they are or not. But most of all, there are simply so many of these tournaments that people just sign up for whatever is available. That doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer a well-run tournament, it just means they don't have the choice. I would like to see enough better tournaments running that there IS a choice, and then I predict you will see them 'voting with their feet'.

 

All I think you will achieve is to intimidate people from trying out TD’ing and perhaps alienate the good ones who keep on reading this *&*(&^%

I think convincing people who are not qualified to TD to learn what they should be doing BEFORE they start running games is a good thing. I also think we desperately need a way that they CAN learn. I very much doubt that the knowledgable TDs who run good games are alienated by attempts to improve the less knowledgable ones. By the way, do you really think it's "*&*(&^%" to want to know the 'rules' of the tournament before you register for it?

 

We need TWO things:

 

1. We need the TD Wish List software implemented as soon as possible.

2. We need a TD organization for communication and education among the TDs.

 

Fred and Uday have to do #1. I'm hereby taking volunteers for #2.

[jillybean]

Great, form a TD organization to help and train TD's and imrpove the quality of tournaments.

Please STOP playing in terrible free tournaments and complaining about clueless TD's. That is the *(&*(&% I refer to! :)

 

jb

[candybar]

Great, form a TD organization to help and train TD's and imrpove the quality of tournaments.

Please STOP playing in terrible free tournaments and complaining about clueless TD's. That is the *(&*(&% I refer to!  :P

Jilly, how does one know that a tournament is "terrible" or that the TD is "clueless" unless the tournament description is accurate?

 

Uday told me that there are over 1000 TDs authorized in BBO. Must I play with each one of them to find out if they are competent? Must each person who wants a good tournament with a capable TD play with each one of them to find out?

 

Wouldn't it be better to have some standards in the first place, or some kind of "seal of approval" showing that they at least know the Laws, try to follow them, and know how to do the TD job?

[golfacer]

Golfacer...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt.

 

Yes, I meant unannounced "goulash" boards, or boards programmed by the director that aren't random, where success is based on reading the director's mind more than anything else. I agree that if the boards are random and generated elsewhere, that should also be noted in the tournament description or rules page.

 

 

 

(jillybean2 @ Sep 3 2005, 12:51 AM)

 

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

There is currently no easy way for someone who hasn't played much on BBO to know if a TD will perform adequately. If I play an 8-board tournament and know nothing about the director, there's about a 90% chance I won't need to call the director for anything (whether to get a sub, ask for an adjustment, etc.), and unless the director doesn't do anything drastic like create new rules or add a lot of time to the rounds, I still won't know after the tournament whether the director is good. A large percentage of players will register for any tournament in which the BBO software will allow. Candybar's suggestions are meant to help the more serious players have a much more enjoyable experience on BBO.

[hrothgar]

Fred and Uday have to do #1. I'm hereby taking volunteers for #2.

At one point in time David Stevenson was working on some kind of certification system for Directors. David is a rather odd fish, however, he has a very good knowledge of the laws. You might consider dropping him and email and see if it would be possible to combine efforts...

[jillybean]

Great, form a TD organization to help and train TD's and imrpove the quality of tournaments.

Please STOP playing in terrible free tournaments and complaining about clueless TD's. That is the *(&*(&% I refer to!   :D

Jilly, how does one know that a tournament is "terrible" or that the TD is "clueless" unless the tournament description is accurate?

 

Uday told me that there are over 1000 TDs authorized in BBO. Must I play with each one of them to find out if they are competent? Must each person who wants a good tournament with a capable TD play with each one of them to find out?

 

Wouldn't it be better to have some standards in the first place, or some kind of "seal of approval" showing that they at least know the Laws, try to follow them, and know how to do the TD job?

 

When the tournament rules state automatic 2 trick penalty for anyone failing to alert , no psyches in seat 2, TD playing, no adjustments,etc I think would be a CLUE as to the sort of tournament you are entering! :)

 

Yes ,of course it would be better if all TD's knew what they were doing - I dont disagree with that.

 

There have been complaints about TD's for a long, long time and suggestions for all sorts of aids, rating systems, help files, mentor programs, associations, badges to wear... NOTHING has been done, the complaining is still going on.

 

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

 

jb

 

there are many many threads on this topic

Here is one of the better ones ...

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=6115

[shoeless]

I think there should be a number #3 on the list - Public floggings of directors who make bad rulings, have ridiculous rules for their tourneys, etc. - oops scratch that - it already exists.

[McBruce]

Golfacer...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt. I have often thought of making the hands with dealmaster pro and posting the hand records with deep finesse analysis on a web page after the game...just curious unless by predelt you mean goulash, where its better to not bid and just double the final contract.

I don't think Golfacer has a problem with predealt hands, or he wouldn't be one of the leaders in Alphabet Points, where we always use predealt hands, and in fact we announce during the game the par score, the score obtained by four high-level computer players (using JACK, the world champion of computer bridge), and the double-dummy tricks available, once all tables have completed a board.

 

It's not that difficult to do--get a dealer program to deal random hands, have a freeeware program like gibtrix analyze them for double-dummy possibilities, and have a program like JACK or GIB or Bridge Baron play the hands at a high skill level to get results for the players to compare to. I do it twice a week.

[jimcloh]

On the alert with "no info available", I would suppose the reason it was alerted for you was that your partner questioned it. The way I read your complaint, it seems that part of your objection was the fact it was alerted without info.

[rigour6]

I want to clarify that if candybar felt my reply was flaming him/her, I apologize for that misunderstanding. I think they make some good points, and I am not defensive or angry in my response. I don't have an ego about how I perform in my tourneys, I know some go well and some don't, I don't excuse the poor ones or feel proud at the good ones. I did post because I wanted people incl candybar to udenrstand the other side, not to refute what they are saying.

 

 

To me, the best (and easiest) thing which could be added to the software is a single poll question posed to the player at the end of torunament, asking them how they would rate the job the TD did. Then you make those results available to the players, so they can have good information. Plus the fact the TDs know they are going to be rated should improve things some. Not a panacea, but hopefully not too difficult to program and provides some impetus.

[candybar]

I want to clarify that if candybar felt my reply was flaming him/her, I apologize for that misunderstanding.  I think they make some good points, and I am not defensive or angry in my response.  I don't have an ego about how I perform in my tourneys, I know some go well and some don't, I don't excuse the poor ones or feel proud at the good ones.  I did post because I wanted people incl candybar to udenrstand the other side, not to refute what they are saying.

Not to worry, rigour, I've been flamed much worse than anything you wrote. I just try to see if it is legitimate issues or just a personal attack, and ignore the latter. Your points were completely legitimate, whether or not we agree on all of them. <_<

 

To me, the best (and easiest) thing which could be added to the software is a single poll question posed to the player at the end of torunament, asking them how they would rate the job the TD did.  Then you make those results available to the players, so they can have good information.  Plus the fact the TDs know they are going to be rated should improve things some.  Not a panacea, but hopefully not too difficult to program and provides some impetus.

A good idea, provided it is not publicized to players, but just used as feedback to the TD him/herself. Hopefully, such feedback would serve two purposes, (1) help the TD to realize how others view him/her, and (2) motivate improvement. I wouldn't want to see a public rating system, as much as I might like to have one, because it would be a constant source of controversy and would threaten TDs more than encourage them to improve. I'd prefer that it be a more positive encouraging approach.

[rigour6]

Well, I agree that carrots are better than sticks.

 

I also think that whether a tourney "goes well" or not is most often a function of how many times players abandon the tournament and when - i.e. something the TD has basically no control over. I know when I do my tourneys unclocked (in the hopes of speeding play) there's always a chance that the tounrey will hang up when one group of players, usually the second slowest, play each other and then have to wait for the slowest before they move on. So they finished the first 3 rounds 8 minutes early, now they fume and send me angry messages that they have to wait an extra 5 now.

I can tell them gee if you'd been in the fastest group you'd be done now, but bottom line, that wait means my rating for the tourney is going to be quite poor. So you'd have to take it with a grain of salt, but it'd be something anyway.

 

Also, if there were a series of low scores, BBO might be able to have a head's up and contact the TD, see if they need help.

[candybar]

Wanna hear another amazing story? Today a TD openly admitted that she was PLAYING on one account while TDing the same tournament on another account.

 

I didn't think this was even possible, and I certainly can't imagine that it is allowed.

[belladonna]

Oh well,any player can use as many names as he wish - he can also post under another name.

 

I can really see nothing wrong with this.

 

Seem to me all of us may see a glass 1/2 full - same as we can see it half empty - u see what u want to see.

 

P.S. I use 1 name but can understand others that dont.

[guggie]

the fact that she admits it shows she is honest about it.

I would think it impoossible to give my attention both to hands I am playing and the TDing process, furthermore you can see all hands, also of forthcoming boards, so that makes it impossible to play and bid normally, but probably she guards herself from that?

 

This weekend on european daytime there were very few tournaments, especially free ones, and the payed ones ALL had heavy attacks of postponeritis.

 

Maybe the free TD's get sick of all comments here? Maybe the payed TD's destroy the enthusiasm of the free TD's? Other reasons? A lot of regular daily tournaments like Hobsons choice have disappeared.

 

I found myself back on the dutch site I fled from to BBO. Never thought that would happen.

[helene_t]

Maybe she had to play because she ran out of subs. That has happened before.

[belladonna]

sry my bad.

 

As my english poor guess and read too fast ,didnt realise was playing same tournament,sorry.thought players that use 1 name to td another name to play - not in same tourney.

 

Think is very wrong to play and td same tourney as 2 players.

 

 

I think if any TD does it - is better to announce playing td and then he can use his name once.

 

If wrong for a player to use 2 pc to play tourney - i believe same should go for td.