Does it force u?

[000002]

WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH

3♥ * 3♠ * PASS * 4♣

 

Now , does 4♣ force you?

 

thanks

 

and:

WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH

2♠ * 3♥ * PASS * 4♣

 

same?

 

thanks

[Fluffy]

Yes it does, because he has an easy pass otherwise.

[000002]

I can't understand it.

 

His length from 5 to 8,his strength mb 10\11\12\13\14\15...,his major mb 0\1\2, how to discern?

 

thanks

 

000002

[helene_t]

Absolutely forcing. Furthermore, I think it's primarely choice of game (i.e. 4♣ suggests tollerance for partner's suit). Something like 6 clubs or 5 very good ones, and 2 spades (only one spade if partner's overcall was a jump. With two spades you would raise).

 

It can also turn out to be a slam try. In that case, the 4♣-bidder will bid again. So partner assumes a natural gameforce with spade tollerance.

[000002]

I doubt it & i thinking now .......... why?

 

Anyway , thanks at once is polite

[helene_t]

Why shouldn't it be forcing? Can you have a hand that wants to play 4♣ if partner is minimal, but 5♣ or 4♠ if partner has extra's? Yes, but you can't afford such a luxury. The stronger hands are much more important.

[000002]

thanks

 

how to bid when u hold an "normally" hand like this:

♠ x

♥ xxx

♦ AQx

♣ AKxxxx

 

thanks

[helene_t]

I think 4♣ is fine in both cases [sorry, just realize that partner's suit was hearts in the first case. 4♥ then). I would prefer to have one extra spade in the first case but I don't see any alternative. Edited August 3, 2005 by helene_t

[000002]

thanks

 

Now ,The hand change to :

♠ x

♥ xx

♦ Axxx

♣ AKxxxx

Can he pass 3♠?

 

thanks. glad to meet u

[helene_t]

Yes, I think I would pass that one in the first case. Not sure if it's correct, though.

[000002]

Thanks

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

yes 4C is forcing.

 

The only question is, is it a cue bid, aggreeing the overcalled

suit, or natural, I prefer the cue bid meaning.

 

If you hold

 

x

xxx

AQx

AKxxxx

 

Do you really know, that 4C is better than 3S?

 

After all 4C you need to get 2 tricks more, that this

statement holds true.

Are you certain, you will acchieve this?

 

To bid 4C nonforcing, means, you wanna stop on

a dime.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[000002]

THANKS

 

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

 

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

 

With kind regards

000002

[P_Marlowe]

THANKS

 

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

 

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

 

With kind regards

000002

Hi,

 

regarding choice of games and slam exploration,

i.e. cue bid or natural, have a look at

 

http://www.prairienet.org/bridge/b_cue.htm

 

I am not an expert, so my preference should be

meaningless, personnaly I use the default, that

a new suit on the 4 levl is a cue.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[000002]

Thanks

[Fluffy]

you cannot pass a 3 level overcall with 11 HCP, well of course you do, but your partner will hardly like it.

[ochinko]

THANKS

 

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

 

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

 

With kind regards

000002

I see no merit in a non-forcing 4C. There is the principle of not preempting a preempt from partner. It should be equally valid when opps intervene. Note that you don't steal any bidding space when bidding 4C over 3Sp from opps.

 

With the hands that you gave as an example all choices are between pass and a game in partner's suit. You are not strong enough for a slam try to bid 4C. Note that:

 

1. It's easier to make 4M than 5m.

 

2. When both you and your partner have long suits it's better when the trumps are in the weaker hand, because it could have no outside entries whereas the tricks from high cards in the stronger hand will always be available.

 

That's why I play that a preempt (especially in a major) sets firmly the trump suit. Whether a new suit from the responder should be natural or a cue-bid is a matter of partnership agreement.

 

Petko

[000002]

Thanks

 

Many years ago i saw an article (writen by michaels lawrence? ), he emphasize that 4-LEVEL response(in this case) is non-forcing.

 

But i'm sry to say:it's too hard to understand by me in that early period.

& i want to seek the reason NOW.

 

anyone help me?

 

Thanks

[mikeh]

You and your partner could agree that the 4♣ call in your sequences is non-forcing. By doing so you will once in a while outbid virtually everyone else, who must pass partner's overcall with no support and a long ♣ suit in a weak hand.

 

But you will lose in the long run.

 

Why?

 

Playing 4♣ as non-forcing means that it will pay off only when 4♣ is a better partscore contract than partner's 3 of a major. That is a narrow target at which to aim. You are bidding a level higher, in a lower scoring contract with no assurance that your suit is any better than partner's, and with no assurance of any fit.

 

On the other hand, playing 4♣ as forcing ensures that you will find any fit that exists, whether it be in partner's suit (it may be long enough that even xx or x will be adequate support), or in ♣ or even in the 4th suit.

 

It also allows the partnership a better opportunity to explore for slam. Partner, with a good hand and a ♣ fit, can cue-bid their suit.

 

You have more possible destinations playing 4♣ as forcing.

 

Of course, you will sometimes hold hands where the non-forcing use would be better, but the same can be said of any approach to the game. If I pick up xxx xx xx xxxxxx, and partner opens 1N, 15-17, I would very much like to bid a natural and non-forcing 2♣. However, experience suggests that using 2♣ as natural and non-forcing is not as effective on the majority of hands as using it as stayman.

 

BTW, I would play responder's first change of suit below game as natural (and forcing) rather than as a cuebid, for essentially the same reasoning: you need to widen the field of possible contracts far too often to use new suit bids as cuebids supporting partner's suit.

 

How one plays a change of suit beyond game, in auctions that start higher, is an entirely different topic, with somewhat different considerations.

[flytoox]

The reason it should be forcing is that it is extremely unlikely 4C plays better than 3S. It is one level higher. If you have a weak misfit hand, just pass 3s and pray you can make it. Given LHO's preempt, it is more likely that you have a good hand and want to explore slam possibility. Having 4C as forcng will serve you well.

[000002]

Playing 4♣ as non-forcing means that it will pay off only when 4♣ is a better partscore contract than partner's 3 of a major. That is a narrow target at which to aim. You are bidding a level higher, in a lower scoring contract with no assurance that your suit is any better than partner's, and with no assurance of any fit.

 

On the other hand, playing 4♣ as forcing ensures that you will find any fit that exists, whether it be in partner's suit (it may be long enough that even xx or x will be adequate support), or in ♣ or even in the 4th suit.

 

If I pick up xxx xx xx xxxxxx, and partner opens 1N, 15-17, I would very much like to bid a natural and non-forcing 2♣. However, experience suggests that using 2♣ as natural and non-forcing is not as effective on the majority of hands as using it as stayman.

 

BTW, I would play responder's first change of suit below game as natural (and forcing) rather than as a cuebid, for essentially the same reasoning: you need to widen the field of possible contracts far too often to use new suit bids as cuebids supporting partner's suit.

 

How one plays a change of suit beyond game, in auctions that start higher, is an entirely different topic, with somewhat different considerations.

Thanks

 

1) why u can bid a forcing 4-level suit 4♣ without fiting the overcall suit(3[sp)?

16hcps or 13~15pts without ♥ stopper

this is seldom after 3♥+3♠ bid.

the most is 9~13hcp,did u agree?

 

2) pd's range very wide (from 6cs/11p to 18p/5cs),but the start auction so higher,can u discern it indeed?

 

3) If bid 4♣ to force pd with holding a 5cards ♣&14hcps,then u have to play 4nt when u can't find a fit suit with 14+11=25hcps,y?

is it a good contract ?

 

4) 1n-2c is forcing because the balanced hand too many , and a poor 6cards ♣ seldom

 

5)how to bid if u want to cue-bid really need? the only way IMO is cue-4♥, even if your 4♣ is forcing,even though u NOT have ♥ control.

 

thanks

[Fluffy]

2) pd's range very wide (from 6cs/11p to 18p/5cs),but the start auction so higher,can u discern it indeed?

It is very wide for you, if my partner overcalls with 11 HCP, I'll try to avoid playing with him any more.

[Winstonm]

First of all, you are welcome.

 

This is a more difficult problem than I originally thought. I had assumed that a new suit is and should be forcing to help game/slam bidding; however, a closer look suggests that game bidding might actually be improved with a non-forcing structure, and when you have been preempted the first priority should be to get to your game and not a speculative slam.

 

It is a given that partner has a good hand to bid directly at the 3-level over a preempt - something in the range of a 14-16 NT.

 

Take these hands after 3H-3S-?

 

x, xxx, AQJ9xx, Kxx

x, Axx, AKJxxx, Kxx

 

It seems too conservative to pass the first hand, yet there is no certainty of any game. There seems to be no way of getting this exact message across unless 4D is non-forcing.

 

Hand two, however, has some options: you could bid 5D or you could cue bid; however, with the cue bid you would have to have this agreement: a cue bid here is only a "general" force and does not promise support. Partner's bids would have to be pre-established as: rebid of his suit means he has no slam interest and 4N means he would cooperate in slam. This would allow responder to clarify his holdings at the 5-level as to whether he is trying for slam in overcaller's suit or his own long good suit.

 

I have not seen Lawrence's article but I have high regard for his thinking processes; there is certainly a good case for his thoughts. The disadvantage comes in slam bidding; it would be easier to bid a forcing 4 diamonds on the second hand, as this leaves more room; however, any time you have an in-between hand you have an unsolveable problem. And IMHO, it is more critical not to be preempted out of your game contract than your slam contract, as the first has more frequency.

 

Good question.

 

Winston

[000002]

THANKS

 

Excellent posted by u ,MR winston

 

THANKS

 

Can you help me another question?

(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

 

Is this 4nt show an 5-5 minors now? limit hand ,like:

4 honour in 2 suit (AKxxx+AQxxx)

 

 

good regard

00002

[temp3600]

Hello,

(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

I think the standard meaning of 4NT is key-card blackwood with spades agreed.

 

It seems difficult to describe a good 5-5 in the minor, x - xx - AQxxx - AKxxx for example. 4♥ sounds like a slam try in spades. I would start with 4♦, followed by 5♣.

 

Michael