3NT in 4th position

[ochinko]

After 3 passes, I like to bid 3NT with 18-19 pts and a balanced hand even with an unknown partner, when their skill level is advanced or expert. I believe that this makes the defense much harder than if we reach the game slowly.

 

However, I get frequently raised to 6NT by a partner that helds two Aces and a Queen. The last one was an expert, who told me afterwards that this isn't bridge. I reckon, he was talking about my bidding, not his :) What do you think about that?

 

Petko

[Chamaco]

If you really want to upgrade ur hand, why not restrain yourself to 2NT rather than 3NT ?

 

- you give pard a chance to xfer into a major, which may well be best;

- you avoid any quantitative raise (hard to imagine a passed hnd inviting to 6NT)

[helene_t]

Are you sure p won't see 3NT as gambling, and will run with xx or xxx in some suit? I know some would say that a 3NT opening oposite a passed hand is different, but it is something to discuss.

 

Btw, how do you know if p is advanced?

[the hog]

Well I think 3NT in 3rd and 4th seat should be any hand on which I think I can make 3N opposite a passed hand ie a long running suit and some outside stuffing.

[Fluffy]

I can hardly imagine a good hand for opening 3NT in 4th.

[Finch]

3NT in third seat is traditionally the same as in first or second: a long running minor with very little ("no more than a queen") outside. Just because partner's a passed hand doesn't mean you can't make 3NT, and it has significant pre-emptive effect.

 

The only standard I know for 3NT in fourth seat in the traditional "English" approach: again a long running minor but usually with stops of some sort in the other 3 suits. The sort of hand that would otherwise open at the 1-level and rebid 3NT. Say,

 

Qx

Kx

AKQxxxx

Ax

 

Playing it as 18-19 balanced seems a little, um, aggressive to me. If you think it's a good method then fine, but it isn't standard and I don't think you should expect your partner to play you for this hand unless you've agreed it in advance.

[Free]

Don't see any reason to bid 3NT with only 18-19hcp and a balanced hand. You don't even have a source of tricks, and give partner a gamble - which is never a good thing. You have enough bidding sequences to show your hand correct, and let partner in the decision.

[ochinko]

That was the hand in question:[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa5h842da5cq98532&w=sj872hkqj93d94c76&e=s94ht65djt862cat4&s=skqt63ha7dkq73ckj]399|300|Scoring: IMP

(P) - P - (P) - ?[/hv]

 

Funny thing is that 6NT makes with everything but a heart lead. One pair made 6NT from N. When a heart is lead 3NT is down as well. 4Sp always makes.

 

Yes, I was not exactly balanced, but figured I was likely to get a spade lead on my bidding.

 

Petko

[Finch]

Yes, I was not exactly balanced, but figured I was likely to get a spade lead on my bidding.

 

Petko

If you have long spades, they have short spades.

Assuming they know your 3NT shows a balanced hand, you are most likely to get a lead in your short suits rather than your long suits.

[joker_gib]

I can hardly imagine a good hand for opening 3NT in 4th.

:P

 

Same for me and opening 3NT with the hand in question is suicide cause you still have a good chance to have slam even after partner has passed.

 

Alain

[ochinko]

Yes, I was not exactly balanced, but figured I was likely to get a spade lead on my bidding.

 

Petko

If you have long spades, they have short spades.

Assuming they know your 3NT shows a balanced hand, you are most likely to get a lead in your short suits rather than your long suits.

I could still have the hand from the example that you gave in your previous post. Besides, if the opp on the lead is short in spades, he could lead them precisely because he would expect his partner to have a length there.

 

It's not that unreasonable. The Argentinian star Luis Argerich has made a simulation which shows that with 6-8 points after the bidding goes (1NT) - (3NT) it's better to lead your shorter major. (Unfortunately, I am not able to find his web page at the moment.)

 

It was indeed unlucky that he had those solid hearts.

 

Petko

[coyot]

I don't think it's a good idea to bid 3NT directly... partner will never know what you need from him to make - and with what he should bid higher.

 

Leave 3NT for some sophisticated bid i.e. better than gambling, but based on a long suit. A partner with AAQ will then know that it is safe to try for a slam. I would expect 3NT in 4th place to be 7 tricks in a minor and 2 stopped suits at least...

 

With 18-19 balanced, you'll be easy off bidding slowly.

 

With the hand above, I'd calmly open 1♠ - and if a Drury limit raise comes, make a slam try, otherwise end up in 3NT and sadly go one down on bad spade and heart break.

[Stephen Tu]

There are some major problems with doing this:

 

-unknown partner, if your agreement is SAYC or BBO Basic, he might assume 25-27 balanced which is what is stated on the card. This is obviously a dangerous situation.

-you just may be too high when partner has a 4 count.

-You make it very difficult to find 4M when it makes but 3nt fails.

 

The combination of all these factors will cause losses that will obliterate any small gains you get from concealment.