Correct bidding to get to the worst contract

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=s10653hq98d3cak754&s=s874haj106dak1086cq]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

This particularly nasty deal came up the other day. I am sure that in most systems you will get into a poor contract and miss the not unreasonable contract of 4H. Could I invite honest bidding sequences in standard systems with a prize for the worst final contract? Or did I win the prize? :P

[ochinko]

1D - 1Sp

2Sp - 4Sp :P

 

Petko

[Al_U_Card]

You're right, it IS nasty. I guess 1D-1S-2D-p altho I am sure that some forcing club addicts might then re-bid 2H (less than 16 hcp) and play there......but a wily 1NT rebid could work out quite well.... :P

[Finch]

Sadly I would honestly bid

 

1D - 1S

2S - Pass

 

4H isn't that great. Now a heart partial, that really would be a good effort!

[inquiry]

1D - 1S

2S - Pass

 

Automatic.

 

Mine isn't entirely natural system. A 1m-1M-2NT rebid would be four card support, and very strong game try, a 1m-1M-3M rebid is weaker than 2NT raise, and shows around 14-16 support points. This makes 1m-1M-2M either three card support or four card support and weak opening (weak opening in any case). Passing 2S is fairly automatic here.

[EricK]

I expect 1♦ 1♠ 2♠ pass will be fairly common.

 

But I know of some who might perpetrate 1♦ 1NT pass.

 

BTW whatever happened to the concept of biddable suits?!

 

Eric

[awm]

3NT might not be a bad contract on this hand actually. To make 3NT you need:

 

Spades no worse than 4-2 (or various 5-1 splits with blockage, or spades not lead) and ♥K onside. Almost 50% on best-defense, and probably better on real-life defense. Admittedly you need some help getting to the north hand for the heart finesse, but it actually seems fairly likely opponents can be forced to provide this.

 

To make 4♥, if a spade is lead you pretty much need ♥K onside. You also face some danger of a tap when trumps are 4-2, even if spades are not lead.

 

It's hard to evaluate things like this because it depends so much on the lead. Double-dummy I'd say 3NT is a slightly better contract than 4♥.

 

I agree that an auction like 1♦-1♠-2♠, or even 1♦-1♠-2♦ for those who hate raising on three cards, seems fairly likely. Two spades will probably make, 2♦ I have my doubts about.

 

With one regular partner my auction would be:

 

1♦ (precision) - 1♠...

2♥ (2.5 spade raise, typically better than 11-13 balanced hand) - 2NT (natural game try)

3NT

[badderzboy]

1d-2c

2d-2s

2NT-ppp

[luis]

I will reach 3NT and I'm not worried, what's the problem with 3NT? From your apocaliptic post I know 3NT is going down, but WTP? If you never go down in 3NT then you are not playing 3NT enough.

[mike777]

1nt(14-16)=2c

2h=2nt

p=p

[Al_U_Card]

The only good news here is that in any NT contract, they are unlikely to lead Spades.... :)

[mila85]

I will reach 3NT and I'm not worried, what's the problem with 3NT? From your apocaliptic post I know 3NT is going down, but WTP? If you never go down in 3NT then you are not playing 3NT enough.

I agree.

[Wackojack]

Sadly I would honestly bid

 

1D - 1S

2S - Pass

 

4H isn't that great. Now a heart partial, that really would be a good effort!

Interesting! I bid 4S (admittedly an overbid) so win the prize with Ochinko. (Thanks Ochinko, was this honesty or just making me feel not so alone?) Spades split 5:1 West having the singleton King. Hearts split 3:3 with the King the right side. So 4H makes and 3NT might be let through with bad defence. However, suppose opener had a minimum opening with AJ9x, x, Axxxx, Qxx, then 4S might be tricky but not out of the question.

 

We were playing weak no trump 12-14 and I lazily evaluated my hand as 7 losers assuming partner had 4-card support (either unbalanced or balanced 15-16). After reading the threads on weak NT Acol style v 5M strong NT a month or two ago, I can see that playing strong NT, then opener must be unbalanced making evaluation slightly easier. I don't think I would have passed though, so then probably the best we would have done would be 1D 1S, 2S 3S, 3NT p. :)

 

mike777 Posted on Aug 1 2005, 12:54 PM

1nt(14-16)=2c

2h=2nt

p=p

 

Opening 1NT looks a neat way of avoiding the problem but in UK you are barred from opening 1NT with a singleton unless you are psyching.

[Blofeld]

That's not true, Wackojack.

 

At level 3 and above, you can have an agreement to allow a singleton of any rank in a 4441 hand or an honour singleton in a 5431 hand opening 1nt, so long as you're strictly within the agreed point range.

[the hog]

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.

2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

[Antoine Fourrière]

In my system (to be fully released this decade or the next one), it would go

1♦ 1N

2♦ 2♥

 

1♦: unbalanced with diamonds (could be minimum with five clubs and four diamonds, or a 4441)

1N: 5-10 without a five-card major

2♦ 11-15 with five diamonds and four hearts

(2♣ would show four spades, and you have to pass minimum nine-card two-suiters with clubs, and, more annoyingly, minimum 1=4=4=4s)

2♥: to play

 

So I end up in the right four-three major fit on this one, but it's pure luck.

 

 

 

In standard, 1♦ 1♠ 2♠ looks automatic. The long suits are too good for a 543Q 1N opening. (But then, they must be too good for a spade raise as well?... Still, 2♦ is unappealing.) It helps if you play Reverse Flannery over 1♦.

 

3N is more or less acceptable, but the ♣Q contributes more than expected, and the hearts also mesh well.

[han]

3NT might not be a bad contract on this hand actually. To make 3NT you need:

 

Spades no worse than 4-2 (or various 5-1 splits with blockage, or spades not lead) and ♥K onside. Almost 50% on best-defense, and probably better on real-life defense. Admittedly you need some help getting to the north hand for the heart finesse, but it actually seems fairly likely opponents can be forced to provide this.

To get to dummy you need to overtake the club queen. The heart finesse wil then only give you 8 tricks.

 

4H doesn't look to good either if they start with 3 rounds of spades.

 

My bidding would be 1D-1S-2S pass.

 

If for some reason I'd be very optimistic then it would go

 

1D-1S

2S-2NT (ask)

3D (3-card spade support, extras, stiff club)-3NT

[ochinko]

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.

2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but the pass of 2Sp is clear cut, automatic, WTP, etc. only if you can't ignore the fact that you've seen both hands.

 

You are North, your partner has opened, you believe there's a 4:4 spade fit, you look at a 7 loser hand. How is passing 2Sp a clear cut?

 

What would your answer be if you knew South had:

 

QJ9x

KJx

AKxx

xx

 

4Sp, WTP?

 

And even with the cards as they are dealt, you still have a chance to make, 18% or so. I know, I've pushed some hands to a vulnerable game at IMPs that didn't have a chance at all. Haven't you ever?

 

Petko

[hrothgar]

playing MOSCITO we'd have the followingblase auction

 

1♦ - (P) - 2♥ - all pass

 

1♦ = 4+ Hearts, ~9-14 HCP

2♥ = 3 card heart support, ~7-10 HCP

 

Responder COULD introduce his Spades, however, I prefer to raise to 2♥ praying that the opps will balance

[Fluffy]

I also go for the easy 1♦-1♠-2♦-p

 

Only alternatives I find are

 

1♦-1♠

1NT-pass

 

and

1♦-1♠

1NT-2NT

3NT

[the hog]

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

[Finch]

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.

2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but the pass of 2Sp is clear cut, automatic, WTP, etc. only if you can't ignore the fact that you've seen both hands.

 

You are North, your partner has opened, you believe there's a 4:4 spade fit, you look at a 7 loser hand. How is passing 2Sp a clear cut?

 

What would your answer be if you knew South had:

 

QJ9x

KJx

AKxx

xx

My answer would be that I've missed game.

Quoting individual hands never helps decide if a bid is correct or not.

 

By the way, I don't believe there's a 4-4 spade fit. I believe there is a 4-3 or 4-4 fit. It's clearer to make a game try if you know you have 8 spades between the hands. It's also slightly clearer to try for game playing weak NT, as partner is more likely to have a balanced 15 count.

 

If you are bored, try a simulation. The exact parameters depend on your agreements, but here's a suggestion. Give partner either

 

15-17 4 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, at least 2 clubs & at least two hearts

or

11-15 4 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, singleton club or singleton diamond

or

11-16 3 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, no more clubs than diamonds, singleton club or singleton diamond

 

and see how often you want to play in game.

 

If you are commenting from a strong NT base (as most people are) try:

 

11-14 HCP, 4+ diamonds, and either 4 spades or 3 spades and an outside singleton, or 3 spades and an outside small doubleton. (You may have to eliminate some non-opening bids and a few 1NT/2D rebids).

[joker_gib]

I also go for the easy 1♦-1♠-2♦-p

Same !

 

And 2♦ is not so horrible to play, isn't it ? :P

[inquiry]

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.

2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but the pass of 2Sp is clear cut, automatic, WTP, etc. only if you can't ignore the fact that you've seen both hands.

 

You are North, your partner has opened, you believe there's a 4:4 spade fit, you look at a 7 loser hand. How is passing 2Sp a clear cut?

I would say the automaticness of the method depends on your agreements. Part of the agreement is the minimum number of spades, another part is the upper limit on raise. As this should be a frequent auction, you need firm agreements on both of these.

 

What would your answer be if you knew South had:

 

QJ9x

KJx

AKxx

xx

 

If MY partner had this hand I would shoot him. Well, that might be a little strong. but here is why he will not have this hand.

 

1) I prefer opening 14-16 1NT. This would be a 1NT opening bid.

2) Even not playig 14-16 hcp, his hand is golden opposite a 1♠ bid. We can do this a number of ways, but let's just go with ZAR for the moment. 14 hcp, 10 distrubutional points, 4 control points, 2 fit points for the QJ of spades That is 30 points without the bonus for the doubleton club. I use a jump to 3S to show this hand (and I use 2NT to show a hand too strong for a jump to 3S) as a fit and game try.

 

Thus for my system (notes available on line) , stopping in 2S is truely obvious and automatic. Even if you didn't want to stop, you could bid 2NT as an inquiry to find out more about your opener's hand. Here, opener would rebid 3♦ = only 3 spades, minimum. Then you would at least stop in 3S or more likely 3NT (if you make the game try, you will be stopping at three).

 

However, even not playing 3S as very limited raise (my notes say 29 to 32 Zar) with something else as stronger game try, stopping is 2S is still very a possibiliiy at the table, but I have to admit, I would bid 2NT vulnerable at imps and then take my chances in 3NT. The vulnerable game bonus is too inticining to pass up. On the other hand, at MP or if not vul, I would stick with pass over 2S bids playing with anyone reasonable (reasonable defined as partner can have 3 card support).

[Fluffy]

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

I instead would say it is standard and automatic hehe, its the price for knowing 2♠ is 4 card support I guess.