(ui) players do not alert

[sceptic]

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

 

does it hurt to read polish club and see what it is anyway, so you know, do you know effective defence against it anyway???

 

Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you ???, they may not even speak your language

 

alert in tourneys with full rules ok (maybe you can expect that, if stated), in the main lobby why does it matter, and why do people cite the alert structure from their country to someone from another country.

 

I have seen many team games set up in a few minutes and they cant have enough time to discuss their own system properly so, why shoud they give you more info than they give their pards?????

 

the main lobby has a relaxed informal attitude, lets keep it like that.

 

bridge is only a game, unless your Fred and every little detail matters as they play at such a high level, I think I have been told that concentrate on the basics and leave fancy conventions alone, I think the same applies to the guiding rules of bridge, half the people that whine about non alerts, cant even play the cards properly.

 

They would be better of improving declarer play or defence than worrying about UI when they are not good enough to take advantage of it, to many bueracrats about for my liking.

 

why not read their cc if they have one, or do you expect them to tell you every thing just for a few hands (anything under 12 hands is for fun) keep it like that.

 

non disclosure in this environment stinks of sour grapes

 

(this is my own personal view and not BBO policy) yada yada yada, if you disagree with it, take note I disagree with your views in this enviroment

 

 

p.s. if you don't like it, why not form a commitee and make a set of cyber land bridge rules that encompass, language barriers and all systems

 

from what I have seen even the experts can't agree on everything

[csdenmark]

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

 

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

[inquiry]

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

 

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american. We do have a coyote which is wolf like animal, but what about coyot's post or manner makes you think he (or she) is an american?

 

This is definitely not a spelling or word I would contribute to an American. In fact, if you look Coyot (without the final e) on line, you find it more associated with bulgaria and the Czech Republic. And if you look up Coyot and bridge (MSN search), only two relative post show up, both from the Czech Republic.

 

IF this board allowed flame wars, I would have something to say about your presumptions and prejudice that your post show. As it is, I will leave it at this. Maybe Coyot is from an American, but there is no way for you or I to know.

 

As for Coyot, he (or she) is clearly more correct. On BBO (forget local rules), the rule is to ALERT when there is any doubt that your opponents will understand the meaning of your bid. It is written into the rules of the site. Forget american rules, forget european rules, for get world bridge federation rules. Those are the BBO rules....

 

You can read the BBO rules on ALERTS in the bridge library on the game site under the file entitled "rules of this site". But one sentence summarizes if very well, and puts and end to this type of discussion, that sentence reads...

 

If you have ANY doubt as to whether a bid should be alerted or not, it is approrpriate to alert it

 

Please READ the BBO rules (not american rules) on ALERTING before you pontificate on the American way of doing things. Thank you.

[inquiry]

BTW... there is a coyot on BBO (doesn't mean same coyot as posting here, but probably is), and that coyot flys the Czech Republic flag.

[csdenmark]

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american.

Ben I wrote Coyot as an american because I thought I was able to remember he had informed he lived in western USA - but I may be wrong on that.

 

I have now tried to find out - my only source of information is time-setting. From that it looks like 7 hours behind CET which means Chicago time. Whether correct or not I certainly don't know. Mexico, Bolivia etc. will be options too.

[pigpenz]

means Chicago time. Whether correct or not I certainly don't know. Mexico, Bolivia etc. will be options too.

Dont forget the south pole :)

[inquiry]

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american.

Ben I wrote Coyot as an american because I thought I was able to remember he had informed he lived in western USA - but I may be wrong on that.

Good enough. But you might want to check this post in a thread you posted in several times I believe, where Coyot talks about alterting procedures in Czech Republic:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=81162

[csdenmark]

Coyot talks about alterting procedures in Czech Republic

Czech does not look right Ben. I have checked all postings. Several references to SA and as far as I know Czech is Precision-land. The comments about poles(neighbours?) looks not so friendly.

 

I stop speculations here. I think it will be up to the person himself to inform.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

What I think is much more interesting is simply why this intense debate in several threads? I have noticed no recent problems which can explain this. Where I play we never have problems and those tables I kibitz there seems no problems either. ACBL tourneys seems to have solved their possible problems too - so I assume no problems in tournament area either.

 

So why this intense debate and why now?

[the hog]

About the last thing I want to do is to get involved in a slanging war with anyone, but to say "I want to educate them so that they will alert! " is an incredibly arrogant comment. Just who are these "they" whom you wish to educate. Did you even read my post? I said that I would suspect that half the people who play on line do not play ftf regularly if at all and simply log on for a bit of fun. You won't educate them and its not your responsibility or right to do so.

 

Chill out! When I started playing seriously I called the director on anyone who imo commited infractions eg failure to alert, playing weasel over NT etc etc. Later I came to the conclusion that all this was a waste of time. These lols weren't going to change and I was making the game unpleasant for all concerned. It didn't matter because I was going to beat them anyway.

 

Coyot and Candybar you could both do worse than to read Wayne's post - Sceptic - and take note of the sensible comments he makes.

[candybar]

Since the Hog asks me to note Sceptic's post, I'll add a few comments on it.

 

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

1. If polish club is that hard to explain, then it is certainly unusual enough to alert and give full disclosure to unsuspecting opponents.

2. Whether it is Polish standard or not is irrelevant. It is NOT BBO standard.

 

does it hurt to read polish club and see what it is anyway, so you know

Obviously not, a worthwhile thing to do, but that still does not eliminate the need to alert the opponents what you are playing. I know multi 2D also, but that does not mean I can play it without alerting.

 

Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you

The BBO standard is the one that matters. Country rules are irrelevant.

 

alert in tourneys with full rules ok (maybe you can expect that, if stated)

That is what this discussion is about, alerting in tournaments, where people DO care about the results.

 

why do people cite the alert structure from their country to someone from another country

It has nothing to do with countries. The rule on BBO is that you alert bids which the opponents may not know, expect, understand, etc. The BBO standard systems are well defined, and give the 'expected' meanings of bids. If that happens to be similar to some particular country, it's irrelevant.

 

I have seen many team games set up in a few minutes and they cant have enough time to discuss their own system properly ...

Bridge is a partnership game. If some people want to play it solo style, that's up to them, but many of us prefer to play it with the structure of partnerships and bidding and play agreements. Partnership is what makes it a great game.

 

bridge is only a game, unless your Fred and every little detail matters as they play at such a high level

Do you think Fred or anyone else got to a high level by ignoring the Laws of the game? Some of us aspire to higher levels, may never get there, but would still like to play serious bridge, not some crap shoot with opponents who refuse to comply with the same rules we ethically follow.

 

half the people that whine about non alerts, cant even play the cards properly

It's hard to play the cards well when the opponents have unethically misled you about the meanings of their bids or signals.

 

do you expect them to tell you every thing just for a few hands

Yes, because the rules require it, even for 1 hand.

 

non disclosure in this environment stinks of sour grapes

I agree 100%. Non disclosure is a way of gaining an advantage over opponents that you cannot beat fairly.

 

Bridge is a game, and games have rules. Players who do not follow the rules are not playing the game, they are doing something else entirely. Personally, I like bridge, and I follow the rules. All I ask is that others do the same. If you don't want to follow the rules, you are not playing bridge, and do not belong on BBO or any other BRIDGE game site or club.

[the hog]

QUOTE

Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you

 

 

The BBO standard is the one that matters. Country rules are irrelevant.

 

 

Who says that sayc/BBO standard is the lingua franca. Where is this enshrined as the Holy Grail? If I ever play you and you don't alert your 3 card C opening, consider yourself reported for non disclosure. Again you are forgetting, or perhaps chosing to ignore that this is an international site.

[epeeist]

One should comply with what is mandated (by BBO, tournament, whatever).

 

Going beyond that, one should try -- I try (try, I'm sure I fail sometimes) -- to gauge what should/shouldn't be alerted by one's opponents' profiles and one's (and one's partner's) own profiles.

 

If my opponents' profiles both say "2/1 trns" etc., I don't bother alerting Stayman, or transfer bids over 1NT opening by my partner. Maybe I should, but I generally don't bother. If one of my opponent's profiles said e.g. "novice" and "wj2005" or something (or either is non-SAYC/2over1), I try to remember to alert Stayman, transfer bids over 1NT, etc.

 

If my p and I have agreed systems on or whatever, then I would alert if I was bidding over my p's 1NT overcall of LHO bid, of course, no matter what the profiles were.

 

If my p's profile says "Txs transfers" and I, in a previous round, agreed NOT to use Texas transfers, if I jump to e.g. 4♥ over p's 1NT, I will alert it as "natural" or "to play" or whatever. Ethically, I probably have no need to do so since I would only need to alert if it WAS a transfer. But I prefer to define the meaning (natural) in advance of possibly being asked.

 

As others have noted ad nauseam (not necessarily in this thread), UNLIKE in f2f games, alerting on BBO provides no UI to one's P. So no ethical objection to unnecessary alerting/explaining (so long as one is accurate, not misleading to opponents).

[Elianna]

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

1. If polish club is that hard to explain, then it is certainly unusual enough to alert and give full disclosure to unsuspecting opponents.

2. Whether it is Polish standard or not is irrelevant. It is NOT BBO standard.

Not only that, but there are different versions of Polish Club. Am I expected to know all and to guess correctly which ones the opps are using?

[coyot]

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

 

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

A nice and completely wrong assumption, Claus. I am not american and I don't think that educating people to follow WBF rules is "the american way".

[coyot]

Unless somebody comes up with BBO standard, the ONLY rules that we can safely adopt are WBF rules.

 

Under those rules, SAYC better minor IS alertable. Under ANY rules (maybe with the exception of Poland, not sure), 1♣ in Polish Club IS alertable.

 

sceptic:

1) Yes, I do alert better minor openers

2) I don't care what is the standard for alerting in Poland. With full respect to Polish players, unless they're playing on their home turf under their country rules, I will want them to alert their [1CL] opener. I WILL ask for adjusts in tournaments if the alert absence could cause any damage. And once BBO allows procedural penalties, I will report them to TDs for not adhering to the rules.

3) I don't expect opps to TELL me everything for a few boards unless I ask, but I DO expect them to use alert button to let me know that there is something I could be interested in.

 

I will alert my bids no matter what opps profiles say, no matter what our profiles say.

I will alert my bids no matter what my CC says. The rules say so and following those rules shows respect for opponents.

 

The only exceptions would be, in MBC, when both sides announce the system they play and it happens to be the same system (or very similar).

 

Epeeist: If you happen to assume (from their profiles) that opps play SA2/1 and later discover that they were playing precision, what will you do? Will you just think "oh, my bad, I should have not made that assumptions"? Will you report them to abuse for "misleading you"? (And will you report them to abuse, if they alerted their 1♣ opening?)

[csdenmark]

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

 

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

A nice and completely wrong assumption, Claus. I am not american and I don't think that educating people to follow WBF rules is "the american way".

I will correct my statement as below:

 

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in your way!

 

If you really want to teach somebody something - please think carefully what it means to go international.

 

Done so please try to explain to the majority up the upsetted posters here what it means to go international.

 

It would be an act of courtesy to devote special auditions for selected groups of persons.

[helene_t]

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

Of course, you should pre-alert your general approach, and then it could be argued that the most basic elements of your system (1-level openings) are allready known to opps. After all, there are no systems in which a 1♣ opening is both natural and commonly played: the only systems I know that feature a natural 1♣ opening are Acol and EHAA, and those systems are not very common on BBO.

 

However, in this (arguably imperfect) World some people might expect a 1♣ opening to be SAYCish, SEFish or something similar. Therefore, you must alert it.

 

Just explain it as "WJ" and chances are that opps will either understand or don't care. Otherwise they can ask.

[epeeist]

....

Epeeist: If you happen to assume (from their profiles) that opps play SA2/1 and later discover that they were playing precision, what will you do? Will you just think "oh, my bad, I should have not made that assumptions"? Will you report them to abuse for "misleading you"? (And will you report them to abuse, if they alerted their 1♣ opening?)

 

You seem to be interpreting this in the opposite way to what I meant. I was referring to what I alert/explain, based on opponent profiles, not what I expect/assume opponent bids to mean.

 

If e.g. I am 99% certain, for whatever reasons, that my opponents know that my bid is Stayman, I don't alert it. Even if, technically, I should.

 

If an opponent bids 2 clubs over their partner's 1NT, I may assume it's Stayman. If it turns out not to be, my fault for making an assumption (unless a previous announcement re their bidding system means I am entitled to make that assumption -- for instance if they previously announced SAYC).

 

So yes, "my bad" if I've made an unwarranted assumption.

 

To the best of my recollection, only twice have I ever reported someone to abuse. Once was when an opponent continued to send me messages accusing me of cheating both during and after a tournament was over, because they felt that my asking what type of transfer their 2♠ bid was (i.e. whether clubs, or either minor i.e. what type of transfers they used) was an attempt to cheat. The second instance was when an opponent, in a fit of pique (didn't like their partner's bidding I assume), attempted repeatedly to concede all tricks to me.

 

In at least two other instances of deliberate repeated attempts to wrongly concede all tricks in a tournament, I have simply reported the matter to the TD rather than to abuse.

 

For all except grievously insulting behaviour, I'll generally just set the person to "enemy" status and perhaps make notes. For ill behaviour in a tournament I'll call the TD, if I think the situation warrants such. Which once included calling the TD to complain about my own partner's behaviour, and arguing that the opponents were entitled to A+ instead of A=. This was in an individual tournament :rolleyes:

[badderzboy]

I have read the comments with interest and I must admit that worrying about someone alerting when at times you can't even some people to tell you the system they are playing out of them can be difficult which may be due to language grounds !

 

In a tourney (a rare event) I failed to get a response from every pair on their system and also never saw an alert once or NT range, should I really hassle the director if I have 4 pts for example - I would ask if I need to at the end or during at least no UI issues.

 

I just feel there is a general apathy about alerting not underhand tactics..

 

In the MBC I always post - ACOL natural 1 level opening & 4 Card majors Weak NT 12-14 with weak 2's in the majors when playing with my regular partner and you hope the pick-up opps at least agree a system but with them changing every board for 5/6 boards until u get a stable pair it can be difficult to tell.

 

I don't alert major suit openings as 4+ as I've said we play 4 Card Majors...

 

I alert any artificial bids but don't necessarily enter what it means if it is obvious (Stayman) like F2F - opps can ask at the end of the auction like in f2f or if they intend to bid at the time just like F2f - I do this to remind myself when I need to alert in real life.

 

I do tend to play with people I know or those playing ACOL or SAYC and we don't alert anything - we know what systems our friends play.

 

OF course it could all be settled if we had CCs filled in and I do have a Benji Card!

 

Steve

[coyot]

....

Epeeist: If you happen to assume (from their profiles) that opps play SA2/1 and later discover that they were playing precision, what will you do? Will you just think "oh, my bad, I should have not made that assumptions"? Will you report them to abuse for "misleading you"? (And will you report them to abuse, if they alerted their 1♣ opening?)

 

You seem to be interpreting this in the opposite way to what I meant. I was referring to what I alert/explain, based on opponent profiles, not what I expect/assume opponent bids to mean.

I did that on purpose. I wanted to show that making an assumption either way is bad.

 

I agree that in MBC, when playing against two ppl who play a similar system, you can do without most alerts if you tell them what you play (and it is roughly the same). I don't pester people for not alerting better minors and stayman and transfers IF their profiles show "sayc" - but that holds for me in MBC only. In tournament, there is no room for assumptions. If they don't have CC posted, I assume they bid natural and want to be made aware if not - and I do it for one simple reason - to let people know that they cannot expect their opponents to KNOW their bidding system, whether it is SAYC or WJ.

[coyot]

Edited this out, unnecessary teasing :).

 

Claus now knows I'm not American and my "education" is explained below.

[coyot]

Coyot talks about alterting procedures in Czech Republic

Czech does not look right Ben. I have checked all postings. Several references to SA and as far as I know Czech is Precision-land. The comments about poles(neighbours?) looks not so friendly.

Yes, I will gladly inform.

Claus, you seem to know little about Czech. Not at all precision land.

 

There is a strong ACOL group around the Open Team, most of them play Mr. Svoboda's variant of ACOL. Roughly a 100 followers

 

There are three more "local" flavours of ACOL, which are spreading among the new bridge players, usually of older age.

 

In the Eastern part of country, there are lots of WJ players

 

True, the precision group would amount to another hundred.

 

Then there are smaller regional groups - usually one system per town (Limit, Trutnov Dragon - probably precision based).

 

Then there is a strong SA group, mainly among the younger players.

 

(There is a saying that says that we have a thousand players and thousand one bidding systems :)))

 

Living and playing in such a jungle, you learn to alert a lot and explain a lot and it seems ill not to do so.

 

I don't think I have made any unfriendly comments about Poles.

 

I quite understand their position - they come from a country that is almost homogenous when it comes to bidding. Their players regularly score very high, so they have all the reasons to think that WJ = bridge :-). And that's why I spoke about educating them. Some of them don't realize that 1♣ opener should be alerted (and why).

 

This debate arose because the thread starter complained about getting rude comments as the only reaction to his request that someone alert their unnatural bids. I don't think Poles are rude, but I certainly admit that I've seen quite many unalerted 1♣ openers and my experience when asking the players to alert those bids was not 100% positive, as well.

 

BTW, you've checked all postings and think that Czech does not look right? Well, check them again. I explicitly said "here in Czech Republic" at least once.

[coyot]

Just to clarify, yes, I happen to be the same "coyot" as the one on BBO, and yes, I fly Czech Republic flag (with the short exception of Union Jack a few weeks back).

 

So I did not bother setting the time zone, sorry, never knew I could do that :-).

 

I am sorry if my sentence about educating seems arrogant, but I find it appropriate. Most of the absent alerts are caused by lack of knowledge. Players don't know they should alert, either because they've never heard about alerting or because they assume that everyone plays the system they play... so the transfer of knowledge (=education) seems appropriate.

 

I must admit that I didn't know about BBO alerting rules. What about moving them from bridge library? Or making a link to them so that every new player has to acknowledge them?

 

It has been said before that the purpose of this debate is NOT to make TDs hand out penalties, not in the first place. But, on the other hand, somebody very nicely stated that we need TDs that know the rules, not just babysitters that will sub reds.

 

The purpose of this debate could perhaps be to get to a little more detailed alerting rules, let them be BBO rules, which would not only say "alert if you have any doubt" but also "this should include the following bids".

 

I don't particularly care what the contents of the list would be. I could live with alerting Stayman, Transfers and better minors, I could live without alerting them as well, but I want to have some GROUNDS - and I don't want those grounds based on "what does this particular player THINK is natural".

[dogsbreath]

I dont play with P***** 'cos I'm too lazy to learn P***** club

I dont play with F***** 'cos one of them was rude to me in 2001

I dont play with I**** 'cos they cant count and chat too much

I dont play with D**** 'cos one of them stole my bicycle (A'dam 1985)

I dont play with T****** 'cos they are all crazy (widest-known 'fact' on BBO)

I dont play with A********* why should i get up in middle of the night for a game

I dont play with G****** 'cos they insist on using their own language

I dont play with J******* 'cos they put daft characters all over my chat box.

I dont play with C******** 'cos i cant see why anyone would want to use 'udca'

I dont play with A******** 'cos lots of them are closet Yankee fans.

I dont play Individuals 'cos I always get all the weak players as partners

I dont play MP tourneys 'cos they are too slow

I dont play pay tourneys 'cos I'm too mean

I dont play teams 'cos i always get put with the weaker team

 

..I havent played much recently ... please advise.

:(

Rgds Dog

[hotShot]

Nice one dog :(