(ui) players do not alert

[mike777]

I get the impression expert players from Poland on BBO do not have the "alert" bid in their vocabulary.

 

For the umteemeth time over several years Polish players seem to have no understanding of the term alert. I was again subjected to very rude comments.

 

This has been going on for years with the issue of alerts on bbo and Polish players.

 

Can we have some education directed to Polish players?

[coyot]

I would suggest taking a screenshot of the rude comments and sending it to abuse@ - and requesting a tough action.

 

(When it comes to that, it would be interesting to have temporary and permanent bans implemented into the system :-)) along with the user-creation dialog requesting an e-mail address - and not allowing multiple accounts per e-mail. This would possibly eliminate majority of the morons that would solve the ban by creating a new account - at least since they would have to create a new freemail account as well :))

[luke warm]

yeah, that was the cause of my most recent disaster... had i known they were playing polish club i'd have passed (i should have anyway) and saved 12 imps :)

 

there's a tendency to expect people to alert their bids, but if in doubt i'll ask from now on

[csdenmark]

I think you have forgotten you have chosen you have gone international. This means you have some advantages and some dis-advantages compared to national habits.

 

One of the important things to remember is that SAYC is no universal system - it is a national standard just like Polish Club, Bridgevejen, BIN, SEF etc. Habits for alerts are normally that you dont need to alert standard bids of your national standard system.

 

The simple way to take advantage from your frustrations is to use 30 minutes to study the basics of Polish Club system. It is the national system which differs most to SAYC.

[inquiry]

I find it a bothersome that you choose to paint all people from one country with a single brush. It is clear that not all Polish players fail to alert. It is also clear that people from other countries fail to alert too.

 

But Claus's solution is not workable either, as he makes the assumption that if the bidding starts 1♣ or 2♣ or 2♦ by a Polish player they must be playing polish club. That is not true either. Sometimes on line, they play SAYC or 2/1. If a polish player opens 1♣ with no alert do you assume polish club claus? I did once, and used my defense against polish club opening. It turns out my partner asked (in private) and found they were playing SAYC. This lead to a disaster for us as he took my bid to be natural. I guess what happened to me was the opposite to what is being complained about here, I made the assumption of a polish club opening without an alert (yes I know polish club and have played it occassionally) when it was natural.

 

Alerts for artificial bids is a BBO requirement. In fact, with self-alerts, we should be alerting a lot of things. Consider an auction as simple as 1C-1H-1S, where 1S either promises and unbalanced hand (the way I play), then 1S should be alerted, or 1S can be balanced hand, then it should be alert too. This isn't so much an alert but rather full disclosure. If more people did this, the better for all of us.

 

Ben

[csdenmark]

with no alert do you assume polish club claus?

Yes I do.

 

My assumption is that most players prefer to use the strongest tools they are able to agree on. So do I.

 

If it looks like Polish Club might be an option for Opps. I ask for a confirmation. If I forget it doesnt matter much with simple 1-level responses to 1♣ but if something else come up I query immediately - no matter the system.

 

I always query 2-level openings(no matter the system) and are on special alert for SEF 2♣♦-openings. Same for Acol Dutch.

[coyot]

lerts for artificial bids is a BBO requirement. In fact, with self-alerts, we should be alerting a lot of things. Consider an auction as simple as 1C-1H-1S, where 1S either promises and unbalanced hand (the way I play), then 1S should be alerted, or 1S can be balanced hand, then it should be alert too. This isn't so much an alert but rather full disclosure. If more people did this, the better for all of us.

 

Ben

Good to hear that from someone else as well.

 

In fact, it is an alertable bid by all means, because the bid conveys additional information to partner, apart from the "natural" meaning of 4 spades.

 

Thinking about it closely, if it does not promise unbalanced hand, it can be left without alert, because if the opening of one club is alerted as better minor, a spade rebid on 4card with no additional information should be understood as natural.

(As far as I know, looking for a major fit first and exploring NT later is considered natural in every system.)

 

But it takes a large hammer and a lot of patience to educate people about simple things.

 

The only reasonable solution would be to teach peoople LOUDLY what is considered standard and natural (so that they would find how many bids are in fact passing additional information.). The biggest source of the problem is that quite a lot of people have never played a really natural system, most of them started with at least some gadgets or deviations that, for them, are natural.

 

And, Ben, tone down please... mike said that he "gets the impression that expert players from Poland...". This is far from as bad as your first sentence suggests (second half of the sentence being completely off-topic).

 

Plus, when it comes to that, my guess would be that unalerted polish club 1♣ opener would reach quite similar percentages to unalerted 1m openers for SAYC players. Do you have the means to find out? :P)

 

I would gladly sign mike's statement - I get the same impression! All the Polish players who rigorously alert their bids, feel free to pounce upon me, but I think that a large majority of your countrymates don't alert!.

 

I would not paint them all as rude, of course - but they should certainly play with the knowledge that WJ is NOT the BIG THING outside Poland - and people really don't expect 2♣, 2♦ and 1♣ openers to be so strangely different from natural meanings just because a Polish player made them.

[inquiry]

And, Ben, tone down please... mike said that he "gets the impression that expert players from Poland...". This is far from as bad as your first sentence suggests (second half of the sentence being completely off-topic).

Well, I wonder, did you read the Title to this thread?

[coyot]

And, Ben, tone down please... mike said that he "gets the impression that expert players from Poland...". This is far from as bad as your first sentence suggests (second half of the sentence being completely off-topic).

Well, I wonder, did you read the Title to this thread?

Oh, I stand corrected, you're right, that was a nasty generalization.

[helene_t]

- and people really don't expect 2♣, 2♦ and 1♣ openers to be so strangely different from natural meanings just because a Polish player made them.

Is a Polish 2♣ opening strangely different from a natural 2♣ opening? Maybe if you play Fantunes you find it strange that it denies a 4-card diamonds, and if you play Whereagles system you find it strange that it shows opening strength.

 

OK, I'm being pedantic. But let's not forget the other side of this story: some non-Polish players forget to alert their strong, artificial 2♣ openings when playing against Polish players who may be used to natural 2♣ openings.

[jillybean]

I think language barriers are a contributing factor. Is there anyone, who could translate a few rules to Polish for me, I’d be interested to see if that helps the problem.

My ‘bridge table’ Turkish has helped with the Turks :P

 

jb

[csdenmark]

I think language barriers are a contributing factor. Is there anyone, who could translate a few rules to Polish for me, I’d be interested to see if that helps the problem.

My ‘bridge table’ Turkish has helped with the Turks :P

 

jb

Try this - many languages including polish supported.

 

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_onli...glish&to=Polish

[scoob]

i'm sorry, but i have little sympathy for anyone complaining that bids were not alerted on bbo.

 

you are playing on an international site. caveat emptor. when people sit at your table, or you at theirs it is YOUR responsibility to ask what system they are playing. if the system is unfamiliar to you ensure that they know this and are willing/able to alert their bids. if they are not, play somewhere else.

 

and yes, i know that in theory they're supposed to tell you their system and give alerts without you having to ask - but guess what: there is no governing body to spank them when they don't, so not everyone is going to do it.

[jillybean]

I think language barriers are a contributing factor. Is there anyone, who could translate a few rules to Polish for me, I’d be interested to see if that helps the problem.

My ‘bridge table’ Turkish has helped with the Turks  :)

 

jb

Try this - many languages including polish supported.

 

http://www.translation-guide.com/free_onli...glish&to=Polish

Thanks. I can find translation for individual words online, I was looking more for help with grammar and ensuring I am translating the right words!

[candybar]

i'm sorry, but i have little sympathy for anyone complaining that  bids were not alerted on bbo.

I'm sorry too, because alerting is a requirement of the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, and crucial to a fair competitive environment. Your attitude also encourages the worst possible outcome, namely that others will start saying "if they don't have to alert, then why should I?"

 

you are playing on an international site.  caveat emptor.  when people sit at your table, or you at theirs it is YOUR responsibility to ask what system they are playing. if the system is unfamiliar to you ensure that they know this and are willing/able to alert their bids.  if they are not, play somewhere else.

No, it is not MY responsibility to ask the meaning of every single bid that is made by every opponent, not to mention how it would slow the game to an impossible crawl. If they are not willing/able to alert their bids in accordance with the Laws of Duplicate Bridge and the posted BBO systems, then let THEM play somewhere else.

 

and yes, i know that in theory they're supposed to tell you their system and give alerts without you having to ask - but guess what: there is no governing body to spank them when they don't, so not everyone is going to do it.

Then let's FIND a way to spank them. Let the TDs have the ability to give procedural penalties for repeated failures to alert. Personally, I bounce anyone who fails to alert a second time after I have warned them once. Any type of spanking will work, if the TDs will just step up to the problem, instead of permitting them to unfairly win boards by ignoring the problem.

[uday]

Title of thread edited.

[McBruce]

The problems described in this thread come about for several reasons:

 

1. BBO still does not provide TDs with enough information in the face of disagreements. We cannot tell for sure when a bid was alerted. We cannot tell for sure how long anyone took to make a call. We cannot see whether a system was pre-alerted in chat. Now, it is true enough that your friendly neighbourhood club director also has to rely on the testimony of players to get these types of facts. But the club director is usually not going to be burdened by language barriers, nor by the fact that conversations are not always the same when typed. Most of us record chat just in case something needs corroboration. It would be a useful option to be able to have players send their tournament chat records to the TD in the case of a dispute. It would be even better if such records included the timing of bids appearing.

 

2. People do not agree on what constitutes a natural bid. Polish Clubbers feel that their system, including the 1♣ opener, is more natural than SAYC; just as American players feel no need to alert 2 ♣ openers since it is natural to them that this shows great strength.

 

3. Too many players do not utilize the features of BBO to protect themselves, instead relying on the universal yet flayed concept that if there is no alert, it is whatever I think it is--or else. If two players with names that have few vowels and clashing consonants come to your table and open 1 ♣, you need to have your head in the sand to assume that this is a standard call. Ask for an explanation already! Do so in chat, not by clicking on the bid.

 

4. If you have a problem that you wish to discuss on this forum, it would really help us to have the deal, the auction, and the story behind it. Blanket statements like 'Polish experts don't alert' are not going to solve anything.

[scoob]

i'm sorry, but i have little sympathy for anyone complaining that  bids were not alerted on bbo.

I'm sorry too, because alerting is a requirement of the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, and crucial to a fair competitive environment. Your attitude also encourages the worst possible outcome, namely that others will start saying "if they don't have to alert, then why should I?"

no, my attitude encourages a pro-active approach - if people aren't alerting, don't play with them - which i'll note is identical to the approach you yourself claim to follow later on in your post.

 

however, having said that i will grant that i wasn't cognisant of the fact that this post was in the TD section of the forum and directly relating to a situation where my (and yours) method of avoiding this nonsense isn't applicable. my comments are only in context in the main bridge club.

[candybar]

The problems described in this thread come about for several reasons:

 

1.  BBO still does not provide TDs with enough information in the face of disagreements.  We cannot tell for sure when a bid was alerted.  We cannot tell for sure how long anyone took to make a call.  We cannot see whether a system was pre-alerted in chat.  Now, it is true enough that your friendly neighbourhood club director also has to rely on the testimony of players to get these types of facts.  But the club director is usually not going to be burdened by language barriers, nor by the fact that conversations are not always the same when typed.  Most of us record chat just in case something needs corroboration.  It would be a useful option to be able to have players send their tournament chat records to the TD in the case of a dispute.  It would be even better if such records included the timing of bids appearing.

I have proposed exactly this to Fred and Uday, but it is a very major effort to accomplish it, so I wouldn't expect it too soon.

 

I think I will post my entire proposal to them, in another thread, so everyone can comment on the ideas in it. That might help them decide which parts are most useful to implement.

[coyot]

i'm sorry, but i have little sympathy for anyone complaining that  bids were not alerted on bbo.

I'm sorry too, because alerting is a requirement of the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, and crucial to a fair competitive environment. Your attitude also encourages the worst possible outcome, namely that others will start saying "if they don't have to alert, then why should I?"

 

you are playing on an international site.  caveat emptor.  when people sit at your table, or you at theirs it is YOUR responsibility to ask what system they are playing. if the system is unfamiliar to you ensure that they know this and are willing/able to alert their bids.  if they are not, play somewhere else.

No, it is not MY responsibility to ask the meaning of every single bid that is made by every opponent, not to mention how it would slow the game to an impossible crawl. If they are not willing/able to alert their bids in accordance with the Laws of Duplicate Bridge and the posted BBO systems, then let THEM play somewhere else.

 

and yes, i know that in theory they're supposed to tell you their system and give alerts without you having to ask - but guess what: there is no governing body to spank them when they don't, so not everyone is going to do it.

Then let's FIND a way to spank them. Let the TDs have the ability to give procedural penalties for repeated failures to alert. Personally, I bounce anyone who fails to alert a second time after I have warned them once. Any type of spanking will work, if the TDs will just step up to the problem, instead of permitting them to unfairly win boards by ignoring the problem.

Well said, candybar.

 

Scoob, your attitude is exactly opposite to the official bridge world!

 

This being international site instead of a local club changes absolutely nothing!

In my local club, people play Acol, Standard, Precision and WJ with roughly the same frequency. There is no "major" system here, as there is no "major" system on BBO (although SAYC could try to claim this title).

 

It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the bidder to make sure that opponents are alerted to the fact that the bid is ARTIFICAL or carries a special agreement.

 

The passing hands do NOT have to investigate what system their opps play. The bridge rules give them the assumption that the system is natural period.

 

True, it is a sane thing to ask opps what system do they play, IF it helps me in any way.

(And yes, it helps me when they play SA, so that I don't have to investigate what an alerted 1♣ opener is.)

But I certainly don't HAVE to tell my opponents: "Sorry, I don't know your system, would you be that kind and alert all conventional bids for me?"

 

And there is a governing body: enemylist in MBC and TDs in tourneys :). What we need is to make sure that TDs will enforce the rules.

[csdenmark]

True, it is a sane thing to ask opps what system do they play, IF it helps me in any way.

It is always wise to guard your own interests. Simply put your query for opps. into your own pre-alert. Be sure you always play according to convention card yourself ensuring you that you are not the one to be blamed.

 

I happened to see yesterday that ACBL tourney's are penalizing players with no convention card posted. That's serious and playing those tourney's your problems are over.

[the hog]

Oh Please!

I have played a bit on BBO. There are many players from all sorts of countries who don't alert. There are a few things to bear in mind -

* Despite what some think, sayc is NOT the lingua franca of bbo. This is, (thankfully), an international site.

* Alerting rules vary from country to country.

* I would suspect, but have no way of proving, that most who play on BBO are not tournament players and perhaps are not used to alerting.

 

Chill out guys. Does it really matter? Are you playing for international selection? Are you playing for sheep stations? Does it hurt to ask? Does everyone in the world even speak English?

 

Quite frankly I find Candybar's post above offensive. Candybar, would you be annoyed if I picked you up for not alerting Stayman? You should be. In my country it is alertable!

 

Ron. (Who alerts Stayman!)

[coyot]

Oh Please!

I have played a bit on BBO. There are many players from all sorts of countries who don't alert. There are a few things to bear in mind -

* Despite what some think, sayc is NOT the lingua franca of bbo. This is, (thankfully), an international site.

* Alerting rules vary from country to country.

* I would suspect, but have no way of proving, that most who play on BBO are not tournament players and perhaps are not used to alerting.

 

Chill out guys. Does it really matter? Are you playing for international selection? Are you playing for sheep stations? Does it hurt to ask? Does everyone in the world even speak English?

 

Quite frankly I find Candybar's post above offensive. Candybar, would you be annoyed if I picked you up for not alerting Stayman? You should be. In my country it is alertable!

 

Ron. (Who alerts Stayman!)

Of course it matters.

 

I mean, if I wanted to kill time clicking on cards, I would play Solitaire, not bridge!

 

I don't want to punish players who do not alert. I want to educate them so that they will alert! And, yes, I do alert Stayman on BBO ;).

 

I agree that people might not be used to alerting, but unless you want to spend most of your time on bbo filling "explain call" boxes, this is the only way!

 

And, yes, it does hurt to ask. It simply wastes time, both my and their. It is much more efficient if you stick to alerting, because then, absence of alert tells the opponents "this bid is natural, or at least I think so".

 

Alerting is the easiest (and maybe the only feasible) way how to make bridge enjoyable. The other options are a) asking everytime what a bid means :P everyone playing the same system.

 

I think that we need both educated players (that will be told WHY it is important to alert) AND educated TDs AND tools that will allow the TDs to hand penalties to those players that do not accomodate.

 

Should the not-alerting-is-ok policy prevail, I quit.

[candybar]

coyot is right, the point is not to punish alert offenders, but to achieve full compliance.

 

One thing that would make it MUCH easier to comply with alert requirements is to add a simple pulldown list to the Alert explanation box when bidding. Then allow players to add phrases to the pulldown list (stored on their computer), which can be selected when making an alertable bid.

 

With this, I could store explanations for just about every bid that might be unknown to anyone, and easily select the explanation.

 

The current system, where I have to type in the explanation every time, is far too cumbersome to encourage its use. Make it easy to alert/explain, and I'll bet the compliance skyrockets.

[jillybean]

The current system, where I have to type in the explanation every time, is far too cumbersome to encourage its use.  Make it easy to alert/explain, and I'll bet the compliance skyrockets.

The existing system is adequate for the majority of alerts and explanations. If you are using a complex system that takes a line or two to fully disclose then use cut and paste chat to opps or use OKscript to automate it fully.

 

The tools are there, use them. The onus is on the players to alert bids not blame the system because there is too much to type.