Partner doubles weak two

[plaur]

[hv=v=b&s=sq6hak7532dk8caq8]133|100|Scoring: XIMP[/hv]

2♦ - x - pass - ?

(2♦ is weak 2 with 6 diamonds)

 

What do you bid and why?

[han]

Slam looks pretty good from our side opposite as little as AKxx xxxx xx Kxx.

 

I'm going to start with 3D, perhaps partner's 2nd call will tell me something. It is not unlikely that I will blast 6H later.

[hrothgar]

3♦? Whats the problem...

 

Note: Partner is likely to hold a NT oriented hand with Qxx or QJx in Diamonds and Qx in Hearts...

[Double !]

3♦?  Whats the problem...

 

Note:  Partner is likely to hold a NT oriented hand with Qxx or QJx in Diamonds and Qx in Hearts...

The problem is the possibility that partner might now bid 3 hearts with 4-4 or 4-5 in majors, wrong-siding the contract and possibly putting your diamond king in jeopardy.

 

If I'm permitted to assume that P has either appropriate shape or else sufficient values if P's dbl is off-shape (ie, P has a rebid available if I make the "wrong" bid), I might just take control, bash the hand, and start asking about aces and kings and fun stuff like that (and lions and tigers and bears, oh my!). I also suspect that P is more likely to be lite with good shape than having a NT-oriented hand unless the 2D bid was made on a blizzard (known to happen). There are just 40 hcp in a deck and I have 18 plus a 6-bagger (unless the queen of spades is worth 13 pts.).

[plaur]

I bid 3♦ and p bid 3♠. Now I really didnt know what to bid. Ive learned that p has no diamond stopper and prefers spades over hearts. So what ? Thats why im wondering if 3♦ is the right bid in the first place. And good point by Double: should p bid hearts the ♦K may be in trouble.

4NT RKC now seems wrong. Maybe 6 hearts ?

 

I bid 4 hearts which was passed around. Opps didnt cash ♦Ace so I had 13 toptricks. Yikes :-(

[helene_t]

6♥. I haven't discussed this with p (is is possible to set hearts as trump in a forcing way?) so I just bid what I want to play.

[EricK]

I bid 3♦ and p bid 3♠. Now I really didnt know what to bid. Ive learned that p has no diamond stopper and prefers spades over hearts. So what ? Thats why im wondering if 3♦ is the right bid in the first place. And good point by Double: should p bid hearts the ♦K may be in trouble.

4NT RKC now seems wrong. Maybe 6 hearts ?

 

I bid 4 hearts which was passed around. Opps didnt cash ♦Ace so I had 13 toptricks. Yikes :-(

It is clear after partner's double that you are in the slam zone.

 

If you don't want to jump to slam immediately or after 3♦ 3♠, then what actually is wrong with 4NT RKC?

 

It doesn't matter that you don't have a ♠ fit because you are in control of the auction, so you are allowed to fool partner in that respect.

 

Eric

[Chamaco]

If you don't want to jump to slam immediately or after 3♦ 3♠, then what actually is wrong with 4NT RKC?

 

It doesn't matter that you don't have a ♠ fit because you are in control of the auction, so you are allowed to fool partner in that respect.

 

Eric

 

I think there could be a problem if we "fool" pard making him believe spades are trumps.

 

In the full RKB described by Kantar, when spades are trumps, a later 6H bid by the 4NT bidder will be interpreted as an asking bid in hearts (can ask for 2nd or 3rd round control, according to the various sequences).

Pard will bid the GRAND slam in SPADES if he has the control we are asking, and would not very happy to play a GRAND in a likely 4-2 fit.

 

So, if pard plays the full RKCB version, the only chance to correct the slam will be in NT.

[Robertn]

Plaur,

 

Some people use the Lebensohl convention when replying to a double of a weak two. Using this, 2♥ would show a weak hand with hearts (to play). If you bid Lebensohl 2NT, partner relays with 3♣, then you bid 3♥ to show an invitational hand with hearts. With the hand you actually had, you can bid 3♥ directly, which is forcing to game and might allow you to make the required cue bids,

 

Robert

[coyot]

Agree - Lebensohl is the only easy way to make sure hearts are played from my hand. Although it is unlikely that partner would bid 3♥ after my 3♦, it is still a possibility.

 

Lebensohl generally pays off and is worth missing the natural 2NT bid.

[mike777]

6H

 

Often showing long hearts and good hand but possible D loser across from 4414 13 hcp hand.

[Chamaco]

Agree - Lebensohl is the only easy way to make sure hearts are played from my hand. Although it is unlikely that partner would bid 3♥ after my 3♦, it is still a possibility.

 

Lebensohl generally pays off and is worth missing the natural 2NT bid.

I know this section is for beginners, but I'd like to take advantage of this open topic for a more advanced question:

 

in this sequence (responding to pard t/o of a weak 2), can Transfer lebensohl apply ?

 

I know it is quite common to use it in the "classic Lebensohl" sequences when 1NT gets overcalled, but I wonder whether the same pairs who adopt it there will also use it when respnding do a takeout of a weak 2.

 

Thanks all, and sorry if the post is out of place.

 

Mauro

[coyot]

I don't know what Transfer Lebensohl is, so I presume I am using the classic version - i.e. 2NT relay to 3♣ (which I plan to pass or bid my invit/NF), with any 3rd level bid being GF.

[helene_t]

Transfer Lebensohl - you mean Rubinsohl? Interesting idea. A little googleing lead me to a review of 3-D and the Mafia Club.

[Chamaco]

Transfer Lebensohl - you mean Rubinsohl? Interesting idea. A little googleing lead me to a review of 3-D and the Mafia Club.

Yes Rubensohl is a form of xfer lebensohl.

 

Some pairs use it differently from Rubensohl (e.g. one deviation is whether cuebiding opps suit direcly or in xfer) so they prefer to call it generically Transfer Lebensohl rather than Rubensohl (which has specific sequences attached to its name).

[Winstonm]

Put me in the practical verses scientfic camp on this one. I don't want to risk bidding 3D and have partner bid 3H and wrong-side the slam, so I'll just bid what I think we can make which is: 6H. If we are on for 7, I'll congratulate my LHO for a well-timed 2D bid.

 

Winston

[EricK]

If you don't want to jump to slam immediately or after 3♦ 3♠, then what actually is wrong with 4NT RKC?

 

It doesn't matter that you don't have a ♠ fit because you are in control of the auction, so you are allowed to fool partner in that respect.

 

Eric

 

I think there could be a problem if we "fool" pard making him believe spades are trumps.

 

In the full RKB described by Kantar, when spades are trumps, a later 6H bid by the 4NT bidder will be interpreted as an asking bid in hearts (can ask for 2nd or 3rd round control, according to the various sequences).

Pard will bid the GRAND slam in SPADES if he has the control we are asking, and would not very happy to play a GRAND in a likely 4-2 fit.

 

So, if pard plays the full RKCB version, the only chance to correct the slam will be in NT.

That's true.

 

Although I would be planning to play this in NT anyway. If ♥ run I almost certainly have the same number of tricks in ♥ and NT, but if eg one opponent has ♥JTxx and I am missing the ♦A then I might still survive in NT (eg partner has right 5-3-1-4 hand).

 

Eric

[TheoKole]

With my regular partner, I would bid 3 ♥ forcing, (we would not play weak over weak). I am already thinking about slam in hearts and I have to assume that I must protect my K ♦ from 2 fast losers until I know otherwise.

 

With the A ♦ instead of the Kx ♦ or a singleton , I would probably bid 3♦ wanting to here from partner. Partner's bidding will take into account how many quick losers he has in Diamonds, so if he insists on Spades I will trust he has the A♦, a singleton or void.

 

For now I want him to know that I have good hearts, and I probably expect a 3 ♠ bid from him, if he does bid spades, I will cue bid 4 Clubs as a waiting bid to see if he can cue-bid ♦.

 

If he goes back to 4 ♥, I will use RKC 4NT, but in reality I really can't see him having the A ♦ if he can't cue-bid diamonds. (He may have a void though)

 

Most likely after I cue-bid 4♣ is a 5 ♥ bid by partner asking for ♦ control after which I would bid 6 ♥.

 

:) Cheers

[Stephen Tu]

If you bid Lebensohl 2NT, partner relays with 3♣, then you bid 3♥ to show an invitational hand with hearts. With the hand you actually had, you can bid 3♥ directly, which is forcing to game and might allow you to make the required cue bids,

 

I believe the problem with this is that a majority of experts play that direct 3♥ is only invitational with 5 hearts, even playing Lebensohl, treating this situation differently from 1NT openings, which have a tighter strength range than a takeout double. They use Lebensohl to distinguish 4 and 5 cd invites, rather than between invitational/GF (useful since you are often forced to double 2♦ with 4-3 in the majors). With GF hands you generally have to cue or leap to game. I wouldn't assume 3♥ was forcing playing Lebensohl without a special agreement.

[han]

Yep, that's how I would play it too: direct 3H shows 5, delayed 3H shows 4, both invitational. This may be theoretically inferior, I sure wish I played 3H as forcing on this hand!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3H.

 

Playing lebensohl this should be forcing, afterall one has

2H, 2NT followed by 3H available.

 

Nice time to find out, if partner knows, what we are playing.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I dont encounter a direct weak 2 in diamond very often, so this

remark should be taken with a grain of salt

But I also blieve in playing similiar situation similar, i.e. I would never

make a difference, if lebensohl occurs after a 1NT opening from partner

and after a weak 2 made by the opponents, which would just increase the

memory load, for a benefit, who may be too small to justify this.

[flytoox]

I will bid a practical 6H. I think 3H should be forcing playing Lebensohl. 2H is weak, 2N then 3H should show an invitational hand.

[Double !]

I will bid a practical 6H. I think 3H should be forcing playing Lebensohl. 2H is weak, 2N then 3H should show an invitational hand.

OK, another stupid question.

 

Is 2NT definitely lebensohl in this situation where my suit is higher ranking than the weak-2 bidder's suit? One would always have a simple 2H bid available for a weak hand. A lot of partnership discussion (unless a serious, long-term partnership) often doesn't get this far when discussing a convention and various nuances. I think it is reasonable for 2NT to be leb (because P doesn't know what your suit is and it permits for creating invitational sequences), but I don't know if that is the common interpretation.

[coyot]

Sure - 2♥ is then weak, 3♥ is GF and 3♥ via Leb is invit.

[EricK]

Further to my previous post (about wanting to play this in NT rather than ♥).

 

I did a quick simulation using Jack 3.0, and NT made as many tricks as ♥ on every occasion (about 20 or so deals) bar one where it made one extra trick.

 

Eric