Explaining auction during cardplay

[1eyedjack]

I hesitate to make the suggestion lest it be prejudged by my peers as a waste of Fred's time, but I would quite like it if the option to click on an opponent's bid in the bidding window (to request an explanation) be not disabled after the conclusion of the auction. There are occasions during card play that I require clarification of bids.

 

And yes, I know I can ask. If you think that it is therefore a waste of Fred's time then you are welcome to that opinion.

[csdenmark]

I hesitate to make the suggestion lest it be prejudged by my peers as a waste of Fred's time, but I would quite like it if the option to click on an opponent's bid in the bidding window (to request an explanation) be not disabled after the conclusion of the auction.  There are occasions during card play that I require clarification of bids.

 

And yes, I know I can ask.  If you think that it is therefore a waste of Fred's time then you are welcome to that opinion.

Just left-click the bid you want to be explanied Jack. It dont need to be last bid so if you later in the sequence think this looks strange you just left-click. Doing so the alert-box pops up by your opps. After the reponse by opps. the bid will look as alerted and explained from the very beginning.

[1eyedjack]

I hesitate to make the suggestion lest it be prejudged by my peers as a waste of Fred's time, but I would quite like it if the option to click on an opponent's bid in the bidding window (to request an explanation) be not disabled after the conclusion of the auction.  There are occasions during card play that I require clarification of bids.

 

And yes, I know I can ask.  If you think that it is therefore a waste of Fred's time then you are welcome to that opinion.

Just left-click the bid you want to be explanied Jack. It dont need to be last bid so if you later in the sequence think this looks strange you just left-click. Doing so the alert-box pops up by your opps. After the reponse by opps. the bid will look as alerted and explained from the very beginning.

On my machine that works only during the auction - not during card play

[csdenmark]

Sorry Jack I misunderstood you.

 

To query a bid after the auction is ended looks a bit late to me. I think if that is needed other kind of actions will be right instead.

[coyot]

Sorry Jack I misunderstood you.

 

To query a bid after the auction is ended looks a bit late to me. I think if that is needed other kind of actions will be right instead.

Well, it happens to me a LOT in club games.

 

Imagine that you have a hand with which you don't need to know much about the bidding. You even have more or less obvious opening lead.

 

You make the opening lead and up comes the dummy. Now you have to plan your defense and now you recognize that you would really want to have something clarified. I'm often asking opponents what would some other bid mean in this particular situation, or whether they can or cannot have this or that in the hand.

 

It I had to ask during bidding, it would mean that I would waste opps time on 9 boards to get the information I need on the 10th board.

 

Simpy put, f2f bridge allows you to ask about the bidding during play (as long as you keep it ethical, not lead-requesting on partner :)) and there is no reason why you should not to it in online bridge.

 

I know these cases could be solved by simple chatting, but the bid explanation has a few advantages. (Partner sees it, TD sees it etc.)

 

Other typical situations might be when you THOUGHT that you understood opps bidding and after you see dummy, you find out that things are different. I.e. you expect 4NT quantitative and it turns out that it was BW.

[csdenmark]

You make the opening lead and up comes the dummy. Now you have to plan your defense and now you recognize that you would really want to have something clarified. I'm often asking opponents what would some other bid mean in this particular situation, or whether they can or cannot have this or that in the hand.

I think that's what convention cards are for.

 

It I had to ask during bidding, it would mean that I would waste opps time on 9 boards to get the information I need on the 10th board.

Playing with opposition without convention card you will be right quering ALL of their bids. A good way for disciplining them.

[1eyedjack]

You make the opening lead and up comes the dummy. Now you have to plan your defense and now you recognize that you would really want to have something clarified. I'm often asking opponents what would some other bid mean in this particular situation, or whether they can or cannot have this or that in the hand.

I think that's what convention cards are for.

No design of convention card yet in existence, whether on-line or face to face, provides for an explanation of all bids in all possible auctions. CCs have their place, but they are no complete substitute for a request for information.

 

It is certainly the case that in face to face bridge you are discouraged from asking about a bid if you have no intention of bidding yourself, and it is normally left until the end of the auction before clarification is sought, in order to minimise UI and minimise misleading opponents about your particular interest with the implication of an intention to bid (or consider bidding). Those considerations are perhaps largely redundant where there is no UI risk from an immediate query during the auction, as is the case on-line.

 

However it may slow the game down if you ask immediately about a bid when you have no intention of bidding and where the likelihood of your requiring subsequent clarification is speculative. Heck, you may even end up as dummy.

[coyot]

You make the opening lead and up comes the dummy. Now you have to plan your defense and now you recognize that you would really want to have something clarified. I'm often asking opponents what would some other bid mean in this particular situation, or whether they can or cannot have this or that in the hand.

I think that's what convention cards are for.

 

It I had to ask during bidding, it would mean that I would waste opps time on 9 boards to get the information I need on the 10th board.

Playing with opposition without convention card you will be right quering ALL of their bids. A good way for disciplining them.

I don't care whether I would be right to question all their bids or not. You're completely missing the point!

 

If I play against opps with no CC posted, I will not question every bid just to discipline them. Even if I play against somebody with CC posted, there might be questions clarifying the meaning of certain bids.

 

These questions might arise when I see the dummy - and I want to have the option to ASK opponent in a way that his answer will be visible for my partner and for the TD (in case I need him).

 

It is possible (and used frequently) in f2f bridge - and I don't see any good reason why should we be deprived of this possibility in online games.

 

(Typical case - opponent makes a bid I think I understand. Then I make opening lead and see that I misunderstood the bid. So I want to ask what it meant. (i.e. when a declarer-promised control appears on the table :)).

 

As jack said, I want the option to officially ask after the bidding - without having to ask for every bid I don't care about during the bidding, just because I might need to know later.

[Finch]

Legally, you aren't allowed to enquire about specific calls either during the auction or during the play; you are only allowed to ask for a full explanation of the auction.

[helene_t]

Legally, you aren't allowed to enquire about specific calls either during the auction or during the play; you are only allowed to ask for a full explanation of the auction.

But that has to do with the UI that you may give to partner, playing f2f bridge. Online it should be OK to click a call during play.

[1eyedjack]

It seems Frances has a valid point. The last publication of the online laws that I could find was at

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...%20Complete.pdf

 

This seems to confirm (Law 20 F) that an expanation should be requested of the entire auction. Furthermore it requires the partner of the bidder to make the explanation, contrary to normal practice at most bridge sites that I know of. This despite that I agree with Helene_t regarding the original mischief that the law was designed to prevent, being redundant in the on-line game.

[coyot]

I am not exactly sure how this works, but, would that mean that in f2f bridge, once the play starts, I cannot ask the opponents wheter a particular bid denies or allows for a particular hand layout?

 

And, if I cannot ask as the defender, is it only because I might convey UI to partner? I.e. as a declarer, would I be allowed to ask?

 

Because I do that quite often, asking opps whether they play 55 artificial overcalls or not being a typical example.

[Finch]

I agree that playing online you should be able to ask privately about individual bids. I was just making the point that it's not part of the Laws - and the original few posts implied it was.

 

It is indeed because of UI (L16) implications that you can't ask about individual calls either during the auction or the play. Yes, I know everybody does it. I do it too.

[helene_t]

It seems Frances has a valid point. The last publication of the online laws that I could find was at

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...%20Complete.pdf

This is a strange document. It has very little to do with online bridge. Some examples:

- Players change their initial compass direction or proceed to another table in

accordance with the Director’s instructions. The Director is responsible for

clear announcement of instructions; each player is responsible for moving

when and as directed and for occupying the correct seat after each change.

- Before play starts, each pack is thoroughly shuffled. There is a cut if either

opponent so requests.

- The cards must be dealt face down, one card at time ...

 

It reminds me on a Danish law about data sequirity requirements in government istitutions, anno 1991. It was in the good old days when the legal advisers of our politicians were still using typewriters: "The encryption key must be kept in a fireproof safe".

[Finch]

Because I do that quite often, asking opps whether they play 55 artificial overcalls or not being a typical example.

There has been tedious lengthy debate elsewhere about whether you are allowed to ask opponents about calls they didn't make.

 

My understanding of the conclusion is that

i) Strictly, you are _only_ allowed to ask for an explanation of the auction

ii) However, the explanation should include all relevant information, including negative inferences.

 

Given that most people aren't up to giving all negative inferences (...and he's denied 5-5 in the majors and a weak hand because he didn't Michaels, and he's denied 15-18 balanced with a stop because he didn't overcall 1NT...) it is seen as entirely reasonable to ask about the rest of their system to ensure you have received all relevant information.

[1eyedjack]

Because I do that quite often, asking opps whether they play 55 artificial overcalls or not being a typical example.

There has been tedious lengthy debate elsewhere about whether you are allowed to ask opponents about calls they didn't make.

I don't doubt that you are right, but I find it surprising that there should be such a debate. It does not seem relevant to this thread so I do not really want to go off on a tangent, but Law 20F1 seems rather unambiguous:

 

"questions may be asked about calls actually made or about relevant calls available but not made"