weak nt

[sceptic]

Hi I was watching Zia in the Vugraph today and I saw this bidding, can some one answer this question please,

 

bidding was 1 D - 1 H - 1 NT(showing strong NT opener or strong NT hand)

 

 

1/. Is it advantageous to play weak nt 12-14 when you can show a strong NT hand in this way. ( it seems the opposite when play ing strong NT)

 

2/. are systems on after your 1NT bid showing 15-17

 

3/. (if systems are on) what happens with stayman as in the example you know your pard has 4 hearts

 

4/. what other benefits are there to playing this way

 

5/. what other adjustments do you have to make in sayc or 2/1 to compensate for playing weak NT as opposed strong NT

[Free]

1) it's a matter of style. We know Fred prefers strong NT, many prefer weak or mini. One of the advantages of weak NT is that it has a preemptive effect. The disadvantage is showing your strong NT hand in some situations.

 

2) usually you play similar systems like when you play strong NT: checkback stayman, or xyz, or nmf, or whatever.

 

3) it's not a 1NT opener, so no need to play a NT structure over this.

 

4) depending on the field, you might go against it. This might be a problem as well. But imo it's also harder to defend against a weak NT, you can't bid destructive, and if you enter the bidding you might get hammered, since the opener's partner has a very good thought of what the hand is worth.

 

5) no real adjustments necessary. Imo playing Walsch improves the bidding a lot, and skipping a 4 card ♠ suit after 1m-1♥ also makes things easier.

[Stephen Tu]

1/. Is it advantageous to play weak nt 12-14 when you can show a strong NT hand in this way. ( it seems the opposite when play ing strong NT)

 

There are both advantages & disadvantages, lots of tradeoffs involved. When you have the strong NT hand, opening 1 of a minor leaves you more room, which can lead to better contracts, e.g. finding 4-4 major partial when everyone else has to pass 1nt, finding superior minor suit partials/games/slams, finding thin major suit games. A minus is playing your major suits from the other side of the table from the field which is mildly disadvantageous. You let your opponents in more cheaply, which can be good or bad. It's good when they take you out of a minus position, or out of a no play 3nt the field gets to. It's bad when they get a cheap lead director in that scuttles your NT contract or takes you out of the field's 3nt that makes on another lead, or when they reach a good contract the rest of the field would be prevented from finding. Opponent's intervention sometimes makes it hard to fully describe your hand, while an opening NT would have gotten the message across at once.

 

When you have the weak NT hand, you essentially have a frequent, effective preempt. The opponents are in a tough position, if they don't intervene they may miss game or a good partial, or a good penalty, but if they act they may themselves run into trouble as responder is well placed to double them. When they do come in, they also can get too low or too high, because they have 1 less bidding level to work with. The major downside of the weak NT is it's also an effective preempt against your own side! You can miss major partials the field finds. There is also a minor, occasional risk of running into a large penalty, or at matchpoints the dreaded down 2 vul undoubled. Both of these can happen with a strong NT hand as well, of course, but it's a bit more frequent playing the weak.

 

When you have a distributional minor opening, you are a little better off as partner will support you more readily in competition, not being afraid of overcompeting opposite a balanced minimum. You'll have compensating shape or HCP.

 

2/. are systems on after your 1NT bid showing 15-17

You play whatever you normally play over 1nt rebids, there are at least a half dozen workable treatments here. It doesn't make sense to play exactly what you do over 1nt openings, because responder already has a bid in and opener has constrained his hand already (no 4 cd support for partner).

 

5/. what other adjustments do you have to make in sayc or 2/1 to compensate for playing weak NT as opposed strong NT

 

Take a look at the Kaplan-Sheinwold system. The main adjustments are

- the sequence 1m-1M-2M shows more strength, since you can't be 12-14 balanced anymore. It can be up to 17 bal, depending on style (it's playable to jump to 3M with 17, I believe Acol players would do this). If you have a minimum distributional opener supposedly you will have compensating shape, giving roughly equivalent playing strength to a strong NT hand. But you probably want to use sounder minor suit openers so that when you do raise, the range doesn't get too wide.

- NT rebids show of course the 15-17 balanced hand.

- 1NT responses to 1 of a minor should be lighter, about 5-8, so that the

strong NT can pass comfortably. (If it's std 6-9 or 6-10, you either miss games

or play too many uncomfortable 2nt contracts)

- with the 1nt response lighter, then your 1d-2c, and inverted minor raises should

probably start at 9+

- you need some discussion of how to handle 3rd hand intervention, e.g. 1d-(p)-1s-(2c)-?

[han]

1/. Is it advantageous to play weak nt 12-14 when you can show a strong NT hand in this way. ( it seems the opposite when play ing strong NT)

2/. are systems on after your 1NT bid showing 15-17

 

The only difference is that the point ranges of 1NT and 1X-1Y-1NT are switched. It is not clear whether this is an advantage or disadvantage. You can make this switch without changing anything to your system. Playing "systems on" after 1X-1Y-1NT is not a good idea. You have already exchanged information (the 1X and 1Y bids) and it would be a waste not to do anything with it. If you are used to playing New Minor Forcing (or XYZ, or whatever you like) then you can still play it here, nothing much has changes except that partner will have 3 more points then you are used to.

 

4/. what other benefits are there to playing this way

 

This is not clear. You will open 1NT more often, as 12-14 point hands are more common. This will give you an edge in some competitive auctions, because the opponents will have a harder time bidding over 1NT then over 1C or 1D. On the other hand, you will miss some 4-4 major suit fits when responder is not strong enough to bid over 1NT, and it is also harder to find minor suit fits over 1NT.

 

There are many other small differences too, it is not clear to me what is "better", and I doubt that anyone can make an argument for either way that will absolutely convince me.

 

5/. what other adjustments do you have to make in sayc or 2/1 to compensate for playing weak NT as opposed strong NT

 

The strong notrump hands can sometimes be tough in competition. You want to show that you have extras, but you have no good bid. Some people decide to use the double to show a 15-17 balanced hand, for instance 1C-pass-1S-(2H)-Dbl. It is probably a good idea to open reasonably sound in a minor when playing a weak notrump.

 

You might also want to discuss what you play over 1NT-Dbl. In my experience, this does not come up very often, so a simple and clear agreement is preferable (unless you are a very serious partnership).

 

If you are interested in learning about weak 1NT, just give it a try. Perhaps you will enjoy it, perhaps not.

[pbleighton]

"You might also want to discuss what you play over 1NT-Dbl. In my experience, this does not come up very often, so a simple and clear agreement is preferable (unless you are a very serious partnership)."

 

You might play DONT or soemthing comparable (I play Meckwell), if you play it over the opps strong NT.

 

Peter

[Limey_p]

One change I like to make between weak and strong NT is this:

 

(silent opponents, playing US-style 2 over 1, 5 card majors)

 

After the 2 over 1, say 1♥ - 2♣:

 

weak nt => opener's 2♥ rebid is "catch all" just denying the ability to make any more descriptive bid. Doesn't promise 6 and may include substatial extra values.

 

strong nt => opener's 2nt is catch-all; 2♥ promises 6.

 

 

A

[keylime]

One big element about using weak NT. Gotta have discipline using it. Opening it on a 2-3-4-4 hand with two suits wide open is often bad news.

[the hog]

Wayne it doesn't matter whether you play a strong or weak nt as long as it meshes into the rest of your system. However regardless of the strength of your NT, if you have a hand in that range, you need to use the bid. That is why Dwayne's post above is incorrect. If you have a 4432 12-14 even with 2 suits wide open , you open 1NT. If you don't do this, you muck up other parts of your system. eg with a weak NT the nt rebid shows 15-17, playing a 15-17 opening, the nt rebid shows 12-14. You might ask how Dwayne proposes to rebid a 15-17 hand if he doesn't open all balanced 12-14s with 1NT. No one structure is perfect, but if you have a structure at least stick to it.

 

Regarding continuations after opener rebids 1NT

eg 1C 1H 1N

Again regardless of whether this shows 12-14 or 15-17, you have some artificial structures you can use here; these are invaluable in determining rebidder's strength and support for responder. Some I have played are:

2C checkback,

2C as a puppet to 2D and 2D as a gf checkback

Transfer checkback.

 

All of these have been written up in these forums at some time or other

[luke warm]

agree with ron, if you are going to open a hand you should open it in a way that meshes with your system... playing 12-14 nt with a 2344 12 count, either open 1nt or pass... dwayne prefers pass (with 2 suits unstopped)... i prefer 1nt... i have my hand off my chest immediately

[pbleighton]

Agree with Ron and Jimmy. In for a dime, in for a dollar.

 

Don't play weak NT in a strong NT field unless you have a strong stomach for zeros.

 

But if you like tops, by all means play it.

 

Peter (who plays 10-13 NT at all vulnerabilities)

[keylime]

Sorry guys but I've seen more disasters at teams when a 11/12-14 gets opened with suits open.

 

At MPs, I think it's a very effective tool. At IMPs, I don't. It's my view and I'm sticking to it.

[han]

Absolutely agree with Ron, Jimmy and Peter. When you play that 1NT shows a balanced hand with 12-14 points, you should open 1NT with those hands. There will be no other way to show that hand type.

 

Of course this is exactly the same as with playing strong notrumps. There indeed was a time when opening 1NT showed stoppers in all suits (I have this from books, I wasn't alive at then). Bridge has developed a lot since then.

[the hog]

Sorry guys but I've seen more disasters at teams when a 11/12-14 gets opened with suits open.

 

At MPs, I think it's a very effective tool. At IMPs, I don't. It's my view and I'm sticking to it.

Ok Dwayne, but you still have not told Wayne how you solve the problem of your rebids.

Say you have this hand and are playing a weak nt:

 

xx

AKJX

xxx

AJxx

 

You open 1C and over 1S?? If you rebid 1NT on this, which most players would use to show 15-16 or so, how then do you show

Kx

AKJx

xxx

AJxx

 

It just doesn't work Dwayne! You can't use the same rebid to show disparate point counts. Perhaps you mean to say don't use a Wnt at Imps. OK fair enough, but that is not what you suggested with your first post where you commented on discipline.

 

As an aside, I disagree with your comment regarding a weak NT at imps. I now am playing a 10-12 NV except at Red, and it is a huge winner. (Yeah Jimmy, I know I am eating humble pie.)

 

Ron

[hrothgar]

One big element about using weak NT. Gotta have discipline using it. Opening it on a 2-3-4-4 hand with two suits wide open is often bad news.

Most bidding systems do not permit players to exercise much discretion regarding whether or not to open 1NT. If you have the right point count and shape, you open 1NT. This holds true regardless of whether you hold stoppers in 3 suits. Many people have adopted the position that this holds true regardless of whether you hold a 5 card major.

 

These systems have evolved this way because players recognize that distorting the strength/shape shown by their rebids tends to lead to VERY bad results

 

Case in point: Its suicidal to open 1♦ on hands like

 

♠ KJT

♥ 87

♦ AKJ6

♣ 8732

 

playing a 12-14 NT. No matter what response you get, you're in miserable shape...

[helene_t]

Playing strong notrump, you can sometimes rebid 1NT with a non-ballanced minimum hand when no other option appeals:

♠x

♥AKx

♦Kxxx

♣Qxxxx

 

Open 1♣ (or 1♦ if you prefer), then support if partner bids hearts and rebid 1NT if he bids spades.

 

Playing a weak 1NT, you can't do that. The least evil with this hand is probably 1♦ follwed by 2♣. Some might open 1NT, or bid clubs twice, or not open at all.

[coyot]

Playing strong notrump, you can sometimes rebid 1NT with a non-ballanced minimum hand when no other option appeals:

♠x

♥AKx

♦Kxxx

♣Qxxxx

 

Open 1♣ (or 1♦ if you prefer), then support if partner bids hearts and rebid 1NT if he bids spades.

 

Playing a weak 1NT, you can't do that. The least evil with this hand is probably 1♦ follwed by 2♣. Some might open 1NT, or bid clubs twice, or not open at all.

A club rebid, no problem. Of course sometimes it may cause you to end in a bad contract, but lying NT is a big sin.

 

(Partner has to expect that 1♣-1M-2♣ promises either 6card or 5card with non-reverse strength and bad shape.

 

The only case where you open 1♦ is when you have 1-4-4-4 shape, because rebidding a 4card twice is a real no-no.

 

As to weak vs. strong NT:

 

Weak NT means you don't have to play transfers, which frees up one more bid - some pairs use two staymans...

 

Weak NT means that you will block opps VERY often

 

Weak NT means that you occupy the tactical spot

 

Weak NT means that opps don't get the information about you and partner that the rest of field does, when they open a minor and end up in 1NT.

 

Weak NT means that you have to employ a GOOD escape system :).

 

Despite all the above I still plan strong NT and don't plan switching :).

[badderzboy]

Weak NT means you don't have to play transfers, which frees up one more bid - some pairs use two staymans...

 

Weak NT means that you will block opps VERY often

 

Weak NT means that you occupy the tactical spot

 

Weak NT means that opps don't get the information about you and partner that the rest of field does, when they open a minor and end up in 1NT.

 

You do miss 4-4 fits on weak hands

 

Weak NT means that you have to employ a GOOD escape system :).

Weak NT means you don't have to play transfers, which frees up one more bid - some pairs use two staymans...

 

??? What;s the difference with Strong NT to not use transfers I suppose it's the frequency but give up transfers noooo ( I've rather have all my teeth pulled out ) :)

 

I personally think transfers are more important with weak NT but it does change the meaning of 1NT-2C-2D-2Major as a weak takeout 54 in Majors.

 

Weak NT means that you will block opps VERY often

 

Yep, I hate opps opening 1NT - all those hands I could overcall 1Major but not good enough to gamble 2 M :)

 

Weak NT means that you occupy the tactical spot

 

You open it much more often and get your shape and pts across - Partner is in great shape to judge further action... :D

 

Weak NT means that opps don't get the information about you and partner that the rest of field does, when they open a minor and end up in 1NT.

 

Yep...if the field is playing Strong NT that is...

 

Weak NT means that you have to employ a GOOD escape system :).

 

Oh Yes , most players of weak NT do - I can't remember the last time opps didn't run somewhere :o

 

Slight advantage is when playing 3NT after opening 1NT weak is you have better communication between the hands.

 

It's interesting online playing Weak NT when the majority of the field are playing strong with many swings.

 

I also think playing weak NT makes u a better NT player :) cos' 1NT-ppp means u know there's a challenge ahead..

 

From my limited experience playing the fields typical 1NT saves u from the swings...

 

Steve (ACOL player mainly)

[luke warm]

Weak NT means you don't have to play transfers, which frees up one more bid - some pairs use two staymans...

 

??? What;s the difference with Strong NT to not use transfers I suppose it's the frequency but give up transfers noooo ( I've rather have all my teeth pulled out ) :)

a big difference, in my view.. playing strong nt, the nt hand is more likely to want the lead coming to it, so it's more important to make that hand declare

[Free]

Weak NT means you don't have to play transfers, which frees up one more bid - some pairs use two staymans...

 

??? What;s the difference with Strong NT to not use transfers I suppose it's the frequency but give up transfers noooo ( I've rather have all my teeth pulled out )  :P

a big difference, in my view.. playing strong nt, the nt hand is more likely to want the lead coming to it, so it's more important to make that hand declare

This depends on the NT range, and why you want to use it. If you play NT destructive, you want fast arrival, so no transfers. If you want to play constructive, transfers are better imo (also from 4 card), because responder can tell his hand nicely.

[helene_t]

I think weak 1NT gives you a problem with 3rd/4th seat openings. 12-14 is a strange range since with 12 you are probably not interested in game with a passed partner, but with 14 you are. If you open in a suit, you can pass partners response with 12 HCPs and bid on with 14. Sometimes you have a hand with which you may either pass or bid on, depending on revaluation.

 

If you play a weak 1NT, you must use the negative dbl and raise of partner's minor suit more agressively since he can have a ballanced 15-16 with which he can't reopen. A major advantage of the weak notrump is that you can do this safely since you don't have to be afraid that partner has a minimum ballanced hand.

 

Having said all this, I have a slight preference for weak notrump, allthough it cannot be seen in isolation from the rest of the system, of course.

[Stephen Tu]

a big difference, in my view.. playing strong nt, the nt hand is more likely to want the lead coming to it, so it's more important to make that hand declare

 

Right-siding the contract is overrated as a reason to play transfers. Even opposite a strong NT this is worth a very small fraction of a trick on average at best. The main reason behind transfers is for improved constructive bidding; giving up the diamond suit at the 2 level gives you many more major suit oriented sequences. So they are still useful over weak NTs.

 

The reason not to play transfers is that in theory they are easier to defend against. Over the transfer you give RHO many more sequences, as he can pass then bid, double then bid, bid directly, or cue. Whereas if you bid the signoff directly he can only pass, double, bid. But in my experience no one has really taken advantage of this weakness, so it's probably right to play transfers for their constructive bidding advantages.

[awm]

Two reasons you should try playing weak notrump:

 

1. In order to defend against the opponents' weak notrump, you need to have a good feel for what to do in contested auctions starting with 1NT. The only way to really do this is to play a lot of boards where weak notrumps are opened. In regions of the world where strong notrump is the norm, the best way to accomplish that is to play weak NT yourself. See where you get good and bad results, and which actions by opponents succeed and which fail.

 

2. Playing weak NT encourages you to devise and learn a system of runouts after 1NT is doubled. Admittedly most people don't double strong NTs for penalty anymore, but you still get doubled in 1NT fairly often after a notrump overcall (i.e. 1C-1NT-X or 1C-P-P-1NT-X). Good runout agreements will hold you in good stead here.

 

Note that neither of these reasons has anything to do with the merits of weak notrump in general, something which people can (and have) argued endlessly about.

 

Three reasons most top pairs do not play weak notrump:

 

1. Expert players can win consistantly via superior card play and bidding judgement. With this in mind, it's to their advantage to stay with the field. By facing the same problems in bidding and play as most other players, they will do well. Weak NT is often anti-field (in regions where strong NT is the norm), leading to random swings such as playing contracts from the opposite side and making different choices of NT versus suit partial.

 

2. Weak NT is inherently high variance. Like any aggressive preempting style, sometimes you go for a number. Sometimes opponents step out of line and THEY go for a number. Weak NT has the power to turn a lot of nondescript partscore deals into big swings for one side or the other. Since top players are likely to win against most opponents most of the time, it's not to their advantage to throw a big randomizing factor into the mix.

 

3. Comfort level is more important than methods. Even if weak NT is a small winner in the long run (and the jury's still out on this) when you've played a few hundred thousand deals with strong NT you're probably better off sticking to what you're comfortable with. Expert players from strong NT regions recognize this, and stick to what they're used to most of the time.

 

Once again, none of these reasons had much to do with the inherent effectiveness of weak notrumps versus strong.

[Wackojack]

The reason not to play transfers is that in theory they are easier to defend against.  Over the transfer you give RHO many more sequences, as he can pass then bid, double then bid, bid directly, or cue.  Whereas if you bid the signoff directly he can only pass, double, bid.  But in my experience no one has really taken advantage of this weakness, so it's probably right to play transfers for their constructive bidding advantages.

Agreed that playing transfers opens up more constructive sequences but taking advantage of more bids available for defenders is well known in the UK where weak no trump is the norm

Compare the 2 sequences:

1. 1NT -p-2H (transfer) - ?

2. 1NT-p-2S(natural weak) -?

 

(a) ♠94,♥KQ984,♦K3,♣Q954

1. You can double showing hearts and moderate values

2. You have to pass, too risky to bid.

 

(B) ♠4,♥KQ105,♦Q984,♣K1082

1. You pass, then if 2S is passed to you, you double.

2. You double 2S

 

© ♠4,♥KQ105,♦AK82,♣K1082

1. You bid 2S showing a strong take-out double of spades

2. You double 2S, but you cannot distinguish between a strong and a weak take-out double.

 

(d) ♠A4,♥KQJ962,♦Q1093,♣2

1. You bid 3H showing fair values and 6-carder.

2. Ditto

 

On the other hand the 1NT opener has more bids available if partner's transfer is doubled. Thus pass with doubleton in the transfer to suit and transfer with 3 and redouble can be used to show say 3 good or 4 or anything that you think useful. (There was a thread on this a month or 2 ago)

 

The point about this post is that transfers open up more bids for both sides. :)