Assign the blame

[flytoox]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

[flytoox]

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

 

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

 

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

 

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

 

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

 

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

Let me try to counter your reasons:

 

1) It is not extremely likely that we would have a good (= makeable) diamond partscore if LHO says 2♠. 3♦ after a trump lead looks like a no-go (3 hearts, 0 spades, likely 4 diamonds... 2 club tricks are not to be expected easily...).

 

If LHO does NOT say 2♠, our chances to find our makeable partscore are better.

 

2) Second, you said yourself that you don't overcall for lead purposes, so don't bring that in there :lol:.

(BTW, why should your partner lead a club? If your opps end up in 3NT, any sensible partner will try to find your LONG suit - so unless he has more diamonds than clubs, you don't have to fear the club lead. The worst that can happen is that he leads a heart. Of course, if the opponents need hearts to make 3NT, a diamond lead would kill the contract, but how likely is that?)

 

3) I see the risks of bidding with this hand outweighing the possible gains. Chances that we have a makeable diamond partscore if opps have spade fit are pretty low.

Did you realize how many assumptions you have made to get yoru conclusion? They must lead trumps, LHO must have one of SAK, we must play 3D and opp will not bid 3S and opps made right decision. 3D will go down two tricks or 3Dx goes down 1 trick. Pd has three trump only. Pd will find your suit if LHO plays in 3N finally.....

 

 

Do you think these assumption reasonable? Look at the hand carefully, you will find overcaling 2D is the only way to get you a plus score. Isnot this an enough evidence to support 2D overcall?

[flytoox]

Put me in the camp that strongly dislikes the 2♦ overcall. I'm not fond of 5332 hands to begin with. I'm especially warry about overcalling 5332 hands with ratty suits at the 2 level when Red. Personally, I think that 2♦ is a bad description of my hand.

 

I also dislike pulling the double to 4♦. As Frances notes, partner's double is penalty oriented. I have 3 card Diamond support (a plus when defending). More significantly, I have the Ace of Spades which will be a nasty surprise for opener if he has Kxx or Qxx in dummy.

 

The double is a bit rich for my blood. Here, once again, I agree with Frances. Double is clear at MPs however, it has too many ways to go wrong at IMPs.

I agree that pulling pd's dbl to 4D is a fundemental mistake, i.e., violating partnership trust. He made only a simple raise, yet pd dbled 3S. He has a sure defense trick. He really should not pull pd's dbl. However, I think the dbler should realize that overcalling 2D has already given him an edge over those passers. Pushing Opps to 3S is itself a success. THere is no point to dbl whatsoever. This is the reason why I think dbl is worse than the pull.

[mike777]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

What? The only way? That seems a bit extreme.

 

Just make a takeout double.

 

1S=X=2S=X(RESPONSIVE). or

1s=x=3s=p

 

In any case with 9 spades the opp get to 3s.

[flytoox]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

What? The only way? That seems a bit extreme.

 

Just make a takeout double.

 

1S=X=2S=X(RESPONSIVE). or

1s=x=3s=p

 

In any case with 9 spades the opp get to 3s.

Dbl is an option only if you play ELC. I dont think opp will bid 3S if you dont overcall 2D. Responder has a flat 4333 shape he will not bid 3S without interference.

[coyot]

Please stop defending this action on this particular hand. The question is, whether it is a good idea to overcall 2♦ with this hand in genera;, NOT whether the bid at the table yielded a good result.

 

IMHO in long term the 2♦ overcall is a losing bridge - the hand has HCP but nothing else, no good offensive potential.

[flytoox]

If I say passing with this hand is losing bridge, do you find it convincing? IMHO, making this kind claim is pointless. We argue its plus or minus based on analysis and the statistical evidence. Of coz one hand doesnot prove much. But at least it give you some food for thought, isnot it? If you read my post on this thread, you will notice that nowhere I said 2D is a great bid. What I said is that 2D is NOT that bad as many ppl think here. I think it is a difficult bid.

 

Whether overcall 2D is a judgement call. In bridge, judgement call is never black or white.

[the hog]

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

[hrothgar]

Dbl is an option only if you play ELC. I dont think opp will bid 3S if you dont overcall 2D.  Responder has a flat 4333 shape he will not bid 3S without interference.

 

I don't play ELC and I'm still doubling with this hand... Realistically, given that I hold Diamonds, ELC only applies on a limited number of auctions.

 

This hand evaluates as roughly 12.6 HCP using the K+R hand evaluator. The hand degrades a bit more based on the Qxx in RHO's suit, so lets call it 12.25 or so... In short, I can very happily pass any simple preference by partner. If partner jumps to 2♥, my solid trump support will come as a welcome surprise.

 

I can't say that I'm happy to pass partner's 2♣ advance, however, in the long run it seems preferable an odious 2♦ overcall. In particular, it should be noted that 2♣ will often be based on a 5 card suit.

[flytoox]

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

I know there are many strong players here and there are lots of hidden dragon and crouching tiger around this forum. But this is about logic, not about fame, right?

 

I do care ppl's opinion and I believe I am quite open minded. However, simily claiming 2D is a poor bid wonot convince me. I donot know any strong players personnally, but I would expect few real strong players will say 2D is a poor bid.

[Winstonm]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.

 

 

Winston

[mike777]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.

 

 

Winston

Well if your point is LOTT is not perfect, ok but LOTT says bid 2s on this one not 3.

9 trumps but minus one adjustment for 4333 hand. So you got in trouble if you do ignore LOTT on this one.

 

btw have no idea why south bids 3s over 3d.

[Winstonm]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.

 

 

Winston

Well if your point is LOTT is not perfect, ok but LOTT says bid 2s on this one not 3.

9 trumps but minus one adjustment for 4333 hand. So you got in trouble if you do ignore LOTT on this one.

 

btw have no idea why south bids 3s over 3d.

Exactly right, Mike. LOTT does say subtract for 4333.

 

But it seems too many reader's of Cohen never got past the concept of "bidding to the level of your fit" and they ignore shape, secondary honors in opps suits, length, etc. - all the adjustment factors that Cohen wrote so well about is his sequel.

 

But then even the author himself said that in borderline cases his advice was to bid as imperfect defense would often compensate for the slight stretch. And he also said these adjustments should be made when fairly heavily weighted in one direction. There is certainly a reasonable argument that the North hand, with it's well-placed-on-the-sound-of-it diamond King, could be "pure", which would offset the shape.

 

And I'm with you - I'm still trying to figure out the reason for South's 3S bid. :)

 

Winston

[Winstonm]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position. Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond.

 

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame. :)

 

Winston

[hotShot]

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position.  Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond. 

 

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame.    :blink:

 

Winston

There are unforced errors and mistakes made caused by beeing under pressure.

 

If you like to win by opponents unforced errors only, good luck to you.

You will get positive results if you are good enough, but i don't think it is a winning strategie against strong opps, because they don't make much of those.

 

Overcalling 2♦ is a winning bid, because:

 

1) it helps partner with his reopening decisionin 4th seat. He can decide, if we are in a 20-20 hcp situation or if opener hold a 18-21 point hand and passing at low level makes the top.

2) It disturbs opponents bidding.

Assume that N/S play an 2/1 style system, with a focing 1NT.

1♠ - 2♠ => good limit raise

 

1♠ - 1[NT]

XX - 2♠ => weak limit raise

 

By bidding west ripped N/S of an easy GF and south will no longer be able to know if 2♠ is a minimum or a maximum bid.

Less information means higher chance to make a mistake.

 

3) 2♦ is not lead directing,

because if NS play ♠ it's west who is on lead. If North bids NT, partner will smart enough not to finess ♦ for declarer.

So lead directing is a pseude argument here.

 

So there is nothing wrong with the 2♦ bid. EW forced South to make a decision, and with 3♠ he made the wrong one.

[Winstonm]

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position.  Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond. 

 

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame.    :)

 

Winston

There are unforced errors and mistakes made caused by beeing under pressure.

 

If you like to win by opponents unforced errors only, good luck to you.

You will get positive results if you are good enough, but i don't think it is a winning strategie against strong opps, because they don't make much of those.

 

Overcalling 2♦ is a winning bid, because:

 

1) it helps partner with his reopening decisionin 4th seat. He can decide, if we are in a 20-20 hcp situation or if opener hold a 18-21 point hand and passing at low level makes the top.

2) It disturbs opponents bidding.

Assume that N/S play an 2/1 style system, with a focing 1NT.

1♠ - 2♠ => good limit raise

 

1♠ - 1[NT]

XX - 2♠ => weak limit raise

 

By bidding west ripped N/S of an easy GF and south will no longer be able to know if 2♠ is a minimum or a maximum bid.

Less information means higher chance to make a mistake.

 

3) 2♦ is not lead directing,

because if NS play ♠ it's west who is on lead. If North bids NT, partner will smart enough not to finess ♦ for declarer.

So lead directing is a pseude argument here.

 

So there is nothing wrong with the 2♦ bid. EW forced South to make a decision, and with 3♠ he made the wrong one.

The original problem stated that the condidtions of contest was IMP scoring. Taking the risk of losing -500 or -800 in order to try and push the opponents only 1 level higher is losing imp tactics. This is matchpoint thinking and a matchpoint argument.

 

Try taking this back to sympathetic teammates:

 

"Plus 100. They played 2S in the misfit."

"Minus 800. We tried to push them with a 2 diamond overcall."

 

You gain 5 imps when you push them and get it right. You risk losing anywhere from 9 to 12 when you get caught speeding. Laying 1:2 odds is poor stategy.

 

Winston

[Chamaco]

The original problem stated that the condidtions of contest was IMP scoring.  Taking the risk of losing -500 or -800 in order to try and push the opponents only 1 level higher is losing imp tactics.  This is matchpoint thinking and a matchpoint argument. 

 

Try taking this back to sympathetic teammates:

 

"Plus 100.  They played 2S in the misfit."

"Minus 800.  We tried to push them with a 2 diamond overcall."

 

You gain 5 imps when you push them and get it right.  You risk losing anywhere from 9 to 12 when you get caught speeding.  Laying 1:2 odds is poor stategy.

 

Winston

Ditto.

While I agre that passing such hands is not a winner in the long term, I certainly think that bidding a 2m overcall with 5332 without a good suit and low ODR is certainly a longterm loser at IMPS scoring.

 

In the given hand, I'd prefer to stretch a slightly offshape t/o ddouble, after all AKQ in herats is almost a 4 card suit, and if pard bids clubs he'll have usually 5.

[han]

Worst bid imo:

 

a) 2D by west. Followed closely by:

:P Double, also by west.

 

Then we get:

c) 4D. It seems that the double is for penalty, so pulling with one certain defensive trick and less offense than promised is bad. If your agreement about the double is not clear then you seriously need to discuss this with partner.

 

Lastly:

d) 3D. I think I would have bid this too, though I like to have a tad more. However, since I have a singleton in their suit, I cannot count on partner to reopen so I have to go to the 3-level. Given that partner usually has a 6-card suit I'm not too worried about having "only" xxx support.

[coyot]

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

I know there are many strong players here and there are lots of hidden dragon and crouching tiger around this forum. But this is about logic, not about fame, right?

 

I do care ppl's opinion and I believe I am quite open minded. However, simily claiming 2D is a poor bid wonot convince me. I donot know any strong players personnally, but I would expect few real strong players will say 2D is a poor bid.

Well, I did not "simply say" it's a poor bid. Actually, if you look a few pages ahead, you will find my exact analysis of "how many tricks would I need from partner to make the contract I promise by the overcall". I can do the math again - I have 3 sure heart winners and 2-3 diamond tricks, nothing more. (3 if partner happens to have 10 of diamonds). So the contract is at least down two at the moment I chose to overcall.

 

Partner's values in clubs will more likely than not be under menace - so the 2♦ makes only on a few really nice assupmtions (like partner having a diamond honor AND (a spade honor OR working club honor.) - but, it is quite possible that with such a good hand, he would raise to 3♦ (and then go down 1 doubled :-)).

 

[3DI] from partner was not a good bid as well - but only for the reason that his ace is the spade singleton. This strongly limits the ruffing power of the hand, because even after the spade lead, this will require partner to have entries - and, given the junk overcall, good opps will lead a trump or three :) and this hand becomes worthless.

 

With a small spade and Ace of clubs the hand is a little better, but still not good enough to warrant 3♦ unless the overcall promises 6-card (which is not likely these days)

[pclayton]

2D - 7/10 (Not a great suit. I'm not going to wait for the 10 D when I have close to a 1N overcall).

 

3D - 10/10

 

Double - 2/10 (Although I'd make the call at MPs to protect my likely +110)

 

4D - 3/10 (The three trump are a + and the A♠ is a bonus - better to try to take 5 in spades then 10 in diamonds)

[beatrix45]

;)

Good grief! What a zoo this table must have been. Sooo many bad bids.

 

2♦ - losing overcall vs strong opponents, but here??

3 ♦ - losing bid vs strong opponents, but here??

3 ♠ - bad bid, but it does validate the diamond overcall and raise; how else could you get NS overboard?

dbl - retch! Where are the setting tricks?? Where are 10 tricks on offense coming from?? I mean seriously folks, this is IMPs.

4♦ - why pull with a defense-oriented hand???

 

Bridge like this is why one should play for money. Otherwise, it will just go on and on and on ad infinitum without adverse consequences.

[inquiry]

2♦ is fine, if not a little "red blooded"

 

3♦ is, well, very aggressive. How will parnter know to bid on or pass if you raise with this crap like this? I know that LOTT is probably pushing you to bid as the 2♦ overcall tends to be six card suit.

 

But I think the worse bid is dbl. They have bid 3♠. Your 2♦ bid and your partner's 3♦ bid has pushed them. Pass. This is imps. If you beat them how bad can the score be? But if they make, you are in trouble. I just can't imagine doubling here.

[the hog]

Actually Winston made a good point:

with x xxxx Axx Jxxxx the 3D raise is 100% clear cut imo. I could not possibly conceive passing with this.

 

With the posted hand I would still raise to 3D, however I concede that it is aggressive;the above hand is far better than the original hand. I assume you would raise with that Ben?

[Fluffy]

Actually Winston made a good point:

with x xxxx Axx Jxxxx the 3D raise is 100% clear cut imo. I could not possibly conceive passing with this.

This is a completelly different hand, not only because the Ace is no longer stiff, but because it offers partner a great lead he might miss otherwise.

[the hog]

Thats my point Fluffy!