Assign the blame

[Walddk]

Quote: The worst bid by EW was...

 

One option missing in the poll: "All of them".

 

That gets my vote. The rest will get -99 (I give them 1 point for "artistic impression"). :)

 

Roland

[Winstonm]

2D-1

3D-4

Dble-0

4D-0

 

2D: Bad minor suits in bad hands with bad shape don't make good bids. The one question to be able to answer before overcalling is: why am I making this bid?

Because I have 5 so-so diamonds and a cruddy 14 count is not sufficient reason. Where does West expect this hand to go that could not be reached also after a pass ? I assigned a 1 because it is just barely possible that if lucky West could catch East on a magic hand that produces a game that could not be reached otherwise - but bridge is not about finding magic but about consistency.

 

3D: I have some sympathy for this bid as East is entitled to believe a better hand for diamond play is opposite; however, I would much prefer 4-card support with such a weak hand.

 

Dble: Three (maybe) heart tricks and the guesswork out of spades. About as bad as it gets. This may be the kind of double that works at matchpoints, but it is suicide at imps.

 

4D: This is a total horror. A spade trick that partner knows nothing about and fewer diamonds than might be the case does not equal a runout - I suspect East has seen West's doubles before and panicked. Little did he know they were going to get lucky this time.

 

3S by South: This is silly. If anyone needs to bid 3S it is North. South has no more or less than announced with the opening bid and no reason to think 3S is correct. North has the tougher decision with the bad shape, bad diamond holding, but 4 trump. Ugh. Tough decision.

 

The normal imp result here would most likely be 3S down 1. Back to the first argument: Would not this contract also be reached after:

1S-P -2S-P

P-3D?

 

And now East has no reason to do anything other than pass.

 

Winston

[flytoox]

Back to the first argument: Would not this contract also be reached after:

1S-P -2S-P

P-3D?

 

And now East has no reason to do anything other than pass.

 

Winston

Pass then come in at 3 level is even worse than 2D. Now they exchange enough infomation and will dbl you if they want, or bid 3S.

[luis]

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

 

3♦: 0/10 With xxx and no useful cards at all knowing it's probably not your hand there's no need to get pd excited, supporting with xxx has always been in my list of things that usually turn out badly.

 

X: 7/10 Again a reasonable bid, overcalled has some extras and pd has supported, this can be a cold 3NT game or maybe a diamond game, if the 3d bidder has very little we can settle for 4♦

 

4♦: No opinion since this was forced by the horrible 3♦ bid.

[Winstonm]

Back to the first argument: Would not this contract also be reached after:

1S-P -2S-P

P-3D?

 

And now East has no reason to do anything other than pass.

 

Winston

Pass then come in at 3 level is even worse than 2D. Now they exchange enough infomation and will dbl you if they want, or bid 3S.

1S-P-2S-P

P-P.

 

I am looking at two limited hands that thought chances of game so unlikely that they stopped in 2S. With the given hand West hand, I would just as soon play 2S at imps. But the point is that an immediate 2D with a bad hand and bad suit is much more dangerous than the balance: now you have an unlimited hand behind you with no announced fit for spades. If this is the opponent's hand, the 2D bid has just given them the option of either taking their sizeable penalty when it is right or ignoring you and bidding their game anyway.

 

I do agree that this hand is not a good balancing hand. But it's a worse overcall.

 

Winston

[mikeh]

I voted for double as the worst call. It is truly a partner-hanging bid.

 

The hand is too weak to play for penalties... would it be shocking to see a high ♠ in dummy, or for only 2 of the ♥ to cash, and so on?

 

It is utterly the wrong hand for a competitive double.

 

So whatever West meant and however he thought east should/would take it, he doesn't have the hand for the call.

 

As for the other bids, none of them stand out. They are all dubious.

 

2♦: not a bid I would perpetrate. The suit is short and weak. The ♠ suit is only a fraction better than the absolute worst holding imaginable.

 

3♦ is the kind of raise you make when playing with a partner who has his values for 2♦... which this partner did not. If east is familiar with his partner's style, then 3♦ was wrong. If he wasn't then 3♦ is acceptable. BTW, if ew play transfer advances (2N is transfer to 3♣), 3♦ becomes 'safe' because it denies a constructive raise.

 

4♦: I feel for east who must have sensed that he was being asked to choose between two zeros!

[coyot]

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

 

3♦: 0/10 With xxx and no useful cards at all knowing it's probably not your hand there's no need to get pd excited, supporting with xxx has always been in my list of things that usually turn out badly.

 

X: 7/10 Again a reasonable bid, overcalled has some extras and pd has supported, this can be a cold 3NT game or maybe a diamond game, if the 3d bidder has very little we can settle for 4♦

 

4♦: No opinion since this was forced by the horrible 3♦ bid.

Luis, how can you be such an idiot?

 

JUST KIDDING :-)))

 

But seriously, this is NOT a GOOD hand with diamonds, is it?

 

I can paint you a ton of good hands with diamonds that will contain 14 HCP, some of the m will even NOT need 6 diamonds, but you can bet that QJxxx with 5332 and Qxx in opener's suit is NOT one of those.

 

Against majority of 2♦ overcalls, 3♦ would not be a bad bid. The chance for spade ruff or two is pretty good. (Only if opps lead a trump and overcaller has no side entries, he will not get his spade ruffs.).

 

Double of 3 spades? If I were to accept the 2♦ overcall as a good hand, I can't possibly find anything EXTRA in it.

 

Winstonm:

Reopening 2♠ with this garbage is suicide.

 

I would agree with either a straight takeout double (most likely ending in 2♥ in misfit or opps playing 2♠, or a pass.

 

I know that it is a hard task to pass with 14HCP, BUT, if you pass with this hand,

you can be sure that your p will reopen 1♠ should it be passed to him. If your LHO bids 1NT and this gets passed to you, 2♦ is a good reopen - because your partner will know that you have a marginal hand (because you reopened in a case where the fit is not guaranteed).

 

So, I would vote for DBL or PASS as first action with this hand (DBL for sure if the black queen moves into clubs) - and then reopening if possible on 2nd level.

[luis]

Luis, how can you be such an idiot?

JUST KIDDING :-)))

But seriously, this is NOT a GOOD hand with diamonds, is it?

 

I can paint you a ton of good hands with diamonds that will contain 14 HCP, some of the m will even NOT need 6 diamonds, but you can bet that QJxxx with 5332 and Qxx in opener's suit is NOT one of those.

 

Against majority of 2♦ overcalls, 3♦ would not be a bad bid. The chance for spade ruff or two is pretty good. (Only if opps lead a trump and overcaller has no side entries, he will not get his spade ruffs.).

 

Double of 3 spades? If I were to accept the 2♦ overcall as a good hand, I can't possibly find anything EXTRA in it.

Hi coyot,

 

As my pd said once, "I have no problem playing with an idiot but you don't need to go for a world record" :-)

 

From a theory point of view I can destroy the 2♦ overcall as many posters did, from a practice point of view can you really blame this guy for bidding 2♦? I don't think so.

My style says that my partnership likes overcalling and we somehow relax some requirements to overcall that's why we don't punish pd for overcalling, 3♦ is really horrible.

 

If you overcall light and pd bids 3♦ when he should then the double is also logical, in some contexts you may win 3NT.

It all depends on style, I feel my style has more in common with the 2♦ overcaller and I would defend him in an argument with the 3♦ bidder. Let's be practical, 2♦ may or may not be right but caused no harm, on the other hand 3♦ started all the problems.

[Walddk]

Let's be practical, 2♦ may or may not be right but caused no harm, on the other hand 3♦ started all the problems.

The 2♦ overcall actually started all the problems in my opinion. As his partner I, naively perhaps, expect that he has something when he ventures an overcall at the 2-level vulnerable.

 

High cards alone don't win any tricks for your side on offence. Long, strong suits do.

 

Roland

[luis]

Let's be practical, 2♦ may or may not be right but caused no harm, on the other hand 3♦ started all the problems.

The 2♦ overcall actually started all the problems in my opinion. As his partner I, naively perhaps, expect that he has something when he ventures an overcall at the 2-level vulnerable.

 

High cards alone don't win any tricks for your side on offence. Long, strong suits do.

 

Roland

Well we can agree to disagree on this one :-)

Even if 2♦ was wrong I still don't see the need to punish pd bidding 3♦ with xxx

[whereagles]

I prefer dbl to 2D playing equal level correction. But that's just me.. lol.

[the hog]

Dont like 2D - very average suit quality and what is it going to achieve? 3/10

 

3D is automatic - lets get the bidding up there. I would bid this every day of the week. 10/10

 

X is pushy. 3/10

 

4D is very poor - the worst bid in the auction by a street - 0/10

[Fluffy]

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

Not me, ,but at least I agree some extra strrenght for the call has a point, 2HCP far from me for that matter, but its closer than many other 2m overcalls I often see.

 

 

Some people say 3♦ is not a bad bid, I disagree, any raise that is not a jump should show constructive hand, here its not the case at all, I would say a 4♦ bid is a bit too agressive but coul live with it (note that it will be harder that a direct 4♦ bid will be doubled).

[mike777]

2D started the trouble,

 

I would X, the Italians have been making this bid for 60 years and winning.

[luke warm]

maybe all you who hate 2d are right, but to me the 3d bid was horrible... what's the worst that can happen if you pass 2s? they play it and make it? it might be different if you actually had your bid (imo the stiff spade ace doesn't greatly increase the quality of the hand)

[luis]

maybe all you who hate 2d are right, but to me the 3d bid was horrible... what's the worst that can happen if you pass 2s? they play it and make it? it might be different if you actually had your bid (imo the stiff spade ace doesn't greatly increase the quality of the hand)

Clap clap, join my boat :-)

[keylime]

<After a rethink at 5am in the morning>

 

2D overcall was horrid.

 

The double, absolutely inexcusable and deserves a severe whipping of harsh objects upon the flesh of the mere mortal that thought naively they could defeat 3S nearly one handed. Furthermore, done at imps - that gets not only a buttwhooping it also gets a beatdown from a posse. It merits a public confession of each and every bridge sin the player in question has ever committed with a length period of wearing sackcloth to show remorse.

 

4D, not that bad - they can't see pard's diamond overcall as being worse than a dog's dinner. At least they tried.

 

So, West gets all the blame. East, none.

 

Now, someone PLEASE hand me coffee.

Edited July 29, 2005 by keylime

[the hog]

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

Not me, ,but at least I agree some extra strrenght for the call has a point, 2HCP far from me for that matter, but its closer than many other 2m overcalls I often see.

 

 

Some people say 3♦ is not a bad bid, I disagree, any raise that is not a jump should show constructive hand, here its not the case at all, I would say a 4♦ bid is a bit too agressive but coul live with it (note that it will be harder that a direct 4♦ bid will be doubled).

I disagree with with this Fluffy. You have 2NT available here as a constructive raise, so 3D just forces the level up one.

 

A serious question I would ask the 2D overcallers - "Why are you bidding?". For the lead? Well you may be on lead and do you really want a D lead? It is a very dangerous bid with a relatively poor D holding and would encourage a decent partner to have a go at 3N with a S stop and a D honour. Chances for ganme for the opponents are poor. You are risking a black eye to nothing.

[flytoox]

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

Not me, ,but at least I agree some extra strrenght for the call has a point, 2HCP far from me for that matter, but its closer than many other 2m overcalls I often see.

 

 

Some people say 3♦ is not a bad bid, I disagree, any raise that is not a jump should show constructive hand, here its not the case at all, I would say a 4♦ bid is a bit too agressive but coul live with it (note that it will be harder that a direct 4♦ bid will be doubled).

I disagree with with this Fluffy. You have 2NT available here as a constructive raise, so 3D just forces the level up one.

 

A serious question I would ask the 2D overcallers - "Why are you bidding?". For the lead? Well you may be on lead and do you really want a D lead? It is a very dangerous bid with a relatively poor D holding and would encourage a decent partner to have a go at 3N with a S stop and a D honour. Chances for ganme for the opponents are poor. You are risking a black eye to nothing.

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

 

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

 

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

 

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

 

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

 

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

[coyot]

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

 

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

 

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

 

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

 

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

 

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

Let me try to counter your reasons:

 

1) It is not extremely likely that we would have a good (= makeable) diamond partscore if LHO says 2♠. 3♦ after a trump lead looks like a no-go (3 hearts, 0 spades, likely 4 diamonds... 2 club tricks are not to be expected easily...).

 

If LHO does NOT say 2♠, our chances to find our makeable partscore are better.

 

2) Second, you said yourself that you don't overcall for lead purposes, so don't bring that in there ;).

(BTW, why should your partner lead a club? If your opps end up in 3NT, any sensible partner will try to find your LONG suit - so unless he has more diamonds than clubs, you don't have to fear the club lead. The worst that can happen is that he leads a heart. Of course, if the opponents need hearts to make 3NT, a diamond lead would kill the contract, but how likely is that?)

 

3) I see the risks of bidding with this hand outweighing the possible gains. Chances that we have a makeable diamond partscore if opps have spade fit are pretty low.

[the hog]

Agree with the above comments. The other argument is that the possessionon Qxx in the opened suit makes the overcall even more dangerous. As to the part score argument, you don't even have a Major, how to you hope to outbid the opponents?

 

How much more sensible and effective is a 1S overcall of 1C on KJxxx and maybe another K. Overcalling 2D on the posted hand is losing bridge in the long term.

[Antoine Fourrière]

If you must bid, this hand doesn't scream diamonds, but notrump. So 2♦ is much inferior to the debatable, but not outrageous, 1N, and still would be without a spade stopper.

3♦ is correct. The best alternative is a direct 4♦, which would be right if overcaller had shown a six-card suit.

Afterwards, there seems to be a mix-up. Double is understandable only in order to refrain East from bidding on, and 4♦ is understandable only if double shows extra values. (Double is better than 4♦, because 2♦ was way off the mark, while 3♦ was simply the best choice, but East is now sorry he didn't pass or bid 4♦ immediately.)

 

2♦ 2/10 (Pass 10/10, 1N 8/10, Double 2/10)

3♦ 10/10 (Pass 5/10, 4♦ 7/10)

Double 4/10 (Pass 10/10)

4♦ 3/10 (Pass 10/10)

[hrothgar]

Put me in the camp that strongly dislikes the 2♦ overcall. I'm not fond of 5332 hands to begin with. I'm especially warry about overcalling 5332 hands with ratty suits at the 2 level when Red. Personally, I think that 2♦ is a bad description of my hand.

 

I also dislike pulling the double to 4♦. As Frances notes, partner's double is penalty oriented. I have 3 card Diamond support (a plus when defending). More significantly, I have the Ace of Spades which will be a nasty surprise for opener if he has Kxx or Qxx in dummy.

 

The double is a bit rich for my blood. Here, once again, I agree with Frances. Double is clear at MPs however, it has too many ways to go wrong at IMPs.

[Wiste1]

I understand very well why people dont like the 2♦ overcall.

But its still my choise to bid 2♦, and 3♦ is also my style.

Double and 4♦ looks very wrong to me

[Winstonm]

Winstonm:

Reopening 2♠ with this garbage is suicide.

 

No doubt. Seems I didn't make my position clear - this hand is a horrible balance of 2S; however, it is a worse overcall of 1S. The difference is that in the balancing seat both opponents hands are limited and they have established a fit; bidding directly over 1S is bidding into an unlimited hand that has not announced a fit.

 

I wouldn't bid in either seat. I think this is a clear cut pass the first time and a clear cut pass the second time. If this is a double partscore swing, so be it - the other table hopefully will have the same problem. If the opps happened to have stolen a partscore, the -220 doesn't rate to be a match loser.

 

Winston