5c shoud alert?

[happybridge]

VUL:NS

 

result:North6S-1 ns:-100

N:

S:K7642

H:AQ

D:Q7

C:9742

W: E:

S:985 S:Q3

H:KJ987 H:543

D:108432 D:J95

C: C:KQ863

S:

S:AJ10

H:1062

D:AK6

C:AJ105

NS:PREC

EW:PREC

deceptive bid forbid

 

[N] [E] [W]

1S! - 4NT! 5C

5H! - 6C! -

6S - - -

first round:

1: [E] CK CA S5 C2

2: [W] S8 S2 SQ SA

 

question of judgement:

north open 1s,and south 4nt ask aces,continue

west bid 5C with club void,NS seem not use dopi

or other tools,last bid is 6s.

leading is CK and ruff by west,now NS call director

say 5C shd be alertd.and if 5C alert,they can double

5C or rejust contract to 6NT .

director say that 5C shd be alerted,and tell west

continue play as NT,WEST second round lead S8,

result adjust 6s-1 to 6nt mk.

 

 

my question is :

1.5C shd be alerted?why?and director how to

deal with this bidding.

2.who will lead second round?still west?,if CA

win CK,why not south turn?

 

thx in advance

[Free]

My guess is that, IF 5C is conventional that it can be void, it should be alerted, but if your partner doesn't know that it should not be alerted. Normally 5C is lead directing (and here to) but not with a void.

Any player is allowed to bid whatever he wants with his hand, but not all the time. In my region (I don't know if it's everywhere) psychics are allowed 1 time per tournament. If the TD sees this as a psychic that shouldn't be alerted.

 

Anyway, I think opponents made it themselves hard to bid like this! 1S-4NT is ridiculous bidding, going too high in a second. And the guy in south should know there's a danger in C with probably KQ behind him.

 

BTW, if W doesn't bid and they play 6S, what will E lead? Probably CK...

[the hog]

This auction is out of "Alice in Wonderland"

4NT is insane!

5C is actually a clever bid, as if it was going to be doubled I assume W would xx for rescue. This would indicate a C lead if /when East was on lead. I like the bid!!!!

Mo, of course it should not be alerted, it was natural! W runs the risk of a 7C sack, but hey.

 

Great bid I like it, but 4nt?????

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

1.Here in Germany you are not allowed to alert any bid higer then 3 NT .

 

2. Even if: If 5 Club always shows a void in this sequence and a bid at that level must be alerted, okay then the TD was right.

But is there anyone out there, who plays a bid in this sequence that way???? I mean anyone on this planet?

 

For the next flaming paragraph, please remember, that I believe, that the above was not true, that there was no agreement between e/W:

 

3. the whole thing was X?$&%/&%.

The TD has really no no no idea about the rules. (If Nr. 2 does not appear)

N/S have no no no understanding of the game.

South bid like an i"§$$&%. 4 NT was out of the world.

And if 5 club was natural, they will never make 6 Spade and nearly never 6 NT.

But the will get rich in 5 Clubs X or in any other contract from E/W.

 

If my condition Nr. 2 is true and there was no agreement, , then I hopefully will never meet a TD like you did here. He had really no ideas about alerting.

 

And my deepest regrets for the guys who played n/s. They are so unlucky, that they choose the wrong sports....

 

Of course, if there was an agreement, that 5 Club shows a void and you are in a land where you should alert at that level: Okay, everything was fine.

But you did not play on the moon, did you?

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[inquiry]

I don't want to even begin trying to figure out why South bid 4NT. But I want to address two issues.

 

First, the DIRECTOR made a clear mistake in his ruling (with the one obvious caveat that IF 5C promised a void and no alert, a correction would be required. and one minor caveat that needs to be explained below).

 

It looks like WEST is a player. I too like the 5CLUB bid and might make that call at the table myself. Over 4NT, he "knows" that NS have huge spade fit. That in all likelyhood they are headed to 6 or 7 Spades. He is sitting a "favorable vulnerabiltiy" and in all likelyhood has a likely 9 card fit on one off the red suits and more likley 10 (the fact he doesn't has more to do with south's wacky bid than anything else). He is willing to play 5Dx or 5Hx if it comes to that (they stop to double 5C and he then redoubles).

 

It really is a fairly nice shot. The one huge downside, and the one reason I might not make this bid, is that ifmy partner, who has a nice fit for "clubs" hears the auction climb to 6 Spades, and he looks at the vulnerability and says, you know what, 7 CLUBS looks like a good save to me. And he bids 7C. That would be fairly bloody.

 

Here is the minor caveat. If this WEST has made a habit of using these lead directing bids over blackwood with VOIDS such that his partner would NEVER consider bidding 7 CLUBS, then even if it is obstensively natural and non-alerting, the fact remains that EW possess information not available to the opponents. In other words, in this situation WEST gets his cake and gets to eat it too because he knows his partner will not "save" to his suit. Then this needs to be alerted and/or corrected score given.

 

Ben

[luis]

NS are not playing precision, they are playing some form of rudimentary bridge that I don't what it is but it's not precision.

5c doesn't need an alert, West took his risk by bidding 5c, it can be either lead directing or a suggestion of a sacrifice for his pd.

The director is worst than my local TD and that's really amazing first of all there's no infraction since 5c doesn't need any alert and second once NS decide to play 6s east has a natural cK lead for the same result so there was no damage. Once west bid 5c they have a good reason to play 6N instead of 6s but they tried the double shot of 6s or calling the TD and that's not nice.....

Nasty,

[keylime]

I couldn't resist comment here -- the bidding, ruling, and attempted interpretation of the director is absolutely failing of all meritable logic that I can summon.

 

The N-S are by and large grossly novice in their approach, blasting off into 4NT. Why do many people feel absolutely COMPELLED, as if they are entraced on a drug that I am not getting any of, to go slamming? What ever happened to patience these days.

 

The 5C bid is either an act of incredibly genius, or an act of instant suicide. I don't think that you can make an in between decision on those two alternatives. If there is an EXPLICIT understanding between E-W, then only in that instance they could be damage at this juncture. Since it can not be determined whether this is the case, who knows then...I can only imagine in committee how the panel would attempt to make a ruling on this one, especially if E-W communicate the "lack" of any agreement. Interesting question indeed from an active ethics point of view.

 

The greatest blame here lies with the director for missing the bus so badly that they've lost their clothes in the act. How can the director make such a ruling, when there is no clear cut evidence of a failure to alert or <Gasp> a psychic occurring. Did the director ask East the appropriate question of "Does your partner at any time make bids that are unusual in nature?". If East states no, then N-S rightfully earned their score, and they get their just rewards for an auction that lacked more science than my nephew practices in the 4th grade. If East in anyway answers "possibly" or "yes", then I can see some adjustment warranted. Notice the word some, not total.

 

As usual, bad bridge gets commended by a director who doesn't have a clue. I'm now going to eat my ice cream and have a good laugh of all of this.

 

D.

[mishovnbg]

Before to comment, i will resume the facts from the post, how I understand it: the local rules there allow to alert above 3NT (in Bulgaria same is forbidden, if not with screens); E-W are regular partnership, but they have no agreements about 5CL; N call director after ruffing from W.

In my practice as director I notice most of players dont know law and badly defend their position. Posted case is nice example. If N call me only about 5CL was not alerted and explanation from E-W was they dont have agreements, I will leave result. Director can decide only about he called. In this case for example, he cant ask E: "Why you didnt sacrifice in favorite vul with such monster fit in CL?" BUT will be another story if N call me with such question... Much more complicate case... N pretended opponents had additional unshared information, either by agreement or by regular partnership understanding.

FIRST: The director must determine: is an offence against the law occur? In this case I will ask several experts will they bid 7CL with E hand. If at least one of them do it, I will accept that it occur.

SECOND: Are opponents used by some way it? Answer is also "yes", because E can bid 7CL, but didnt do it. Note: no need here to be sure bid, possibility is enough.

THIRD: Are any damage follow for innocent competitor? In this case answer is "yes", because they can play 7CL with double with better result for them.

FOURTH: Adequate adjusting. In this case I will adjust result relative to number of experts that bidded 7CL of all asked.

In addition I will explain to E-W that knoledge of partnership style must be shared with opponents too. I also will give a chance to E-W to contest my decision, with sure return of money for contestation.

Way of bidding and play, if not against law, is not interesting for director - bad 4NT bid in this case. Also is not interesting, that common lead will be KCL without 5CL bid, because 5CL will follow normally to 7CL sacrifice and lead will be from N.

About good/bad directors. I dont know how much is payment in the world, but in Bulgaria you spend more money than earn!!! How can you can expect good directors then?

Misho

[happybridge]

thx for all comment,

EW aren't regular partnership,they played first time

in a team match,only common conventions such as stayman,blw ,etc,no other agreements.

even result adjust to 6NTMK ,EW'S team still won the

match,but that 5C rising endless debate . That the reason i post here to here all of your opinion.

thx all again. :)