jillybean Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 I hear of rules that prohibit the psyche of a conventional opening and also ‘no psyche in 1st or 2nd seat’.I am aware of WBF law 40A, do other laws exist limiting psyches or are these simply recommendations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Law 40D allows sponsoring organisations (SOs) to regulate conventions. This has been officially interpreted as allowing SOs to ban the psyching of particular (or any) conventional calls, e.g. at present in the EBU you aren't allowed to psyche a strong 2C opener or a multi 2D. Law 40D is also used by at least one SO that I know of to forbid a psyche of a 1-level opening on a 7 count or less (that is how "king or more below average strength" is interpreted). It is also used effectively to prevent the use of agreements a SO wishes to ban, but can't find any other way of doing so, by forbidding conventions related to them. For example, in the EBU you can agree to play an 8-10 1NT opening, but you cannot agree to play any conventions in the subsequent auction. Some organisations run events where they ban all psyches, or you mention a ban on any psyches in first or second seat. This is not legal. There is a huge flaming argument possible about whether people should be allowed to do it anyway if that's what the customers want. Some clubs run events - often for novices - where they recommend that you don't psyche. I'm not sure what useful effect, if any, this has. People who think it's a bad idea to psyche against poor players wouldn't do it anyway; those who think it's a good idea will know the recommendation has no force and will continue to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 up to the sponsoring organization, sort of like selling mulligans at a golf scramble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehhh Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 ;) But what distresses me is the fact that no one seems to want to delineate when a psyche becomes a destructive bid and when it does how does one go about handling it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 L40A is it. Players have the right to psyche provided it is not based on a partnership agreement. L40D allows sponsoring organizations to regulate conventional bids and this has been interpreted as allowing them to forbid a psyche of any or all conventional bids. In my opinion this is clearly contrary to what L40A allows but that is the official interpretation. Nevertheless psyches of conventional bids are not restricted unless the SO makes a regulation that restricts them. Therefore for online play where there is no such explicit restriction then these psyches would be explicitly allowed by L40A. I have not seen any regulation of this type online but I haven't looked everywhere. I would assume these restrictions apply to ACBL online games and maybe others where they have explicit rules but not in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Law 40D is also used by at least one SO that I know of to forbid a psyche of a 1-level opening on a 7 count or less (that is how "king or more below average strength" is interpreted). This is clearly outside the powers given in L40D: "The sponsoring organisation may regulate the use of bidding or play conventions. Zonal organisations may, in addition, regulate partnership understandings (even if not conventional) that permit the partnership's initial actions at the one level to be made with a hand of a King or more below average strength. Zonal organisations may delegate this responsibility." L40D The SO may only regulate partnership understandings that permit light openings they have no power to regulate actions by the partnership such as psyches or shaded openings that are outside the partnership's partnership understandings. How do we give a disciplinary penalty for the sponsoring organization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 L40D allows sponsoring organizations to regulate conventional bids and this has been interpreted as allowing them to forbid a psyche of any or all conventional bids. In my opinion this is clearly contrary to what L40A allows but that is the official interpretation. Its worth noting the the WBF luminaries take allow sponsoring organizations extremely broad lattitude regarding the application of Law 40D. Case in point: Grattan Endicott is on record as saying that a sponsoring organization apply Law 40D such that players from Elbonia were banned from playing conventions. In short, if you want to, you can use Law 40D to do whatever you damn well please... From my perspective, this is a very useful example regarding different traditions regarding legal powers. The sponsoring organizations see the Laws as a granting them powers that they can apply as they see fit. Many players beleive that the purpose of the laws is to protect the players against the sponsoring organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 :angry: But what distresses me is the fact that no one seems to want to delineate when a psyche becomes a destructive bid and when it does how does one go about handling it! Almost all psyches are destructive bids. What do you want to delineate or handle?Btw there are many nonpsychic bids that are legal but destructive. Random and excessive destructive bidding may be subject to disclipline, as a function of the director's duty to maintain order and prevent the obstruction of the game. I think this means the director has broad discretionary powers but not unlimited. BTW2 per Bridge World magazine it seems one can say if you falsecard in giving count it is illegal. This would be illegal whether you falsecarded on purpose or if you just forgot to give count correctly. Btw3 per Bridge World it is illegal, in one country, to tell your opp's whether you psyche frequently or rare even if the cc has such a box. So now we can go to jail for telling our opp's our agreements ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 its all been part of bridge since the very beginning.Just like the hand Resse gave on how to bid with 13 solid clubs.David Berstein one of the greatst psyches was his 2NT opening on no points.If this misleads your partner you get what you deserve. If it gets the opponents then it works. Bridge is a game of trying to share information between opponents, and sometimes you have to mislead them in the hopeof misleading the opps. Now some groups like the ACBL are trying to put pressure on the WBF on regulating what an opening bid is. Hopefully the WBF never gives in to this nonsense. :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 I don't play tourneys often (one exception - she's a friend) that ban psyches. I psyched not that long ago 1NT (10-12) on a 3-3-7-0 hand, four count (my Ace in long suit). The opps were incensed for they got talked out of their slam. After crying foul the TD correctly said that they didn't get there due to their own ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted July 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 After crying foul the TD correctly said that they didn't get there due to their own ignorance.UGGGG :angry: Wouldn’t stating the rules be sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Law 40D is also used by at least one SO that I know of to forbid a psyche of a 1-level opening on a 7 count or less (that is how "king or more below average strength" is interpreted). This is clearly outside the powers given in L40D That may be your opinion (in fact, it's also my opinion and I've said so elsewhere fairly vehemently). But that's irrelevant until you hold the casting vote on the WBFLEC. It's not the WBF's opinion, I've been told that this is considered by the WBF to be a legal use of 40D. Stating otherwise doesn't change it. I believe it's a regulation in Italy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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