2/1 Gameforcing

[han]

You hold x AJ10xxxx x KQxx, IMPs, nobody vulnerable, partner opens 1S.

 

You are playing that 2H is 100% GF, and 1NT is 100% forcing. Would you bid 1NT or 2H?

 

Other options are not available.

[han]

I voted for 2H.

[melviss666]

Ideally, I'd find a different bidding system,lol. But, even with the dreaded 2/1 system I believe I'd bid 2H. 2 quicktricks, quite reasonable 7 card suit & 2 stiffs, yeah.

[Double !]

I would bid 2H.

Would I open the hand with a 1-bid? Yes. Therefore, imo, it's good enough for a 2/1. If I bid 1NT, can I ever catch up with this 4 to 5 loser hand? Doubt it.

[inquiry]

Standard 2/1 GF systems with sound opening, 2♥. Light boys, 3♥, invite wiht 6+ hearts about 11-12 hcp.

 

I would bid 3♥ in my system and sit back and let partner guess last. But vul at imps, I would force to game with this hand.

[fred]

Here's one way to look at this problem:

 

If you were the dealer or if the person on your right opened the bidding, would you consider it outrageous to bid 4H? I certainly wouldn't.

 

So if you are willing to take a chance on game under those circumstances, why not do the same when your partner opens (and will therefore usually have enough useful high cards so that 4H will have a chance)?

 

Besides that, you have a strange hand. Do you really think you are going to be able to have a delicate invitational auction that will allow your partnership to judge accurately between 3H and 4H?

 

I think it is 100% clear to force to game on this hand and I strongly suspect that almost all "world class" players would agree with this opinion.

 

Another reason to force to game is that you might have a slam. It will be hard for partner to picture a hand with this playing strength if you fail to make a 2/1.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

Sure 2h even playing junky opening bids.

[mikeh]

Tough and redundant to add to Fred's analysis (although I am WC by BBO definition, I think he is speaking of the next level up (or 2) in his prediction of the thoughts of WC players), but here goes.

 

Imps is a game for bidders, and an even better game for confident bidders. Even if you play 3♥ invitational, which I have reluctantly done with some players, this is not the hand he expects.

 

It has significantly more playing strength than an invitational hand ought to hold. If he raises to game hoping for this hand, you will score a lot of minuses on more typical holdings!

 

And of course, partner has not promised short ♣. Explain missing 7♣ opposite AQxxx x Ax AJxxx.... and be honest about it... maybe you'd reach it on paper, but not in real life.

 

So 2♥, happily and with confidence :unsure:

[Echognome]

It's funny, because i happened to perpetrate 1NT. Playing rubber bridge this hand would go 1♠ - 4♥ with the crowd I used to play with. So can understand wanting to force to game. I just didn't want partner to play me for more than I had. However, what I lacked in high cards, I certainly made up for it in shape. Luckily my LHO chose an unlucky time to psych a 2♥ overcall over my 1NT and his partner had 5 hearts and couldn't take a joke. Was much more fun defending 4♥ doubled than playing in 4♥ on the Hawaiian break. :unsure:

[pclayton]

A question for us that play Lawrence style 2/1 is what is our rebid when pard rebids 2S? We'd make the same call without the 7th heart and without the QC. I'd probably shoot 4H and apologize if I caught: KQxxx, x, AJx, JTxx, but note that even with this semi-fitting dog, game has some play - 30% by my fast math.

[keylime]

Sorry guys but I'm in the minority - 1NT followed by 3♥ for me. I don't like making my 2/1's on shape ten counts.

[mike777]

Sorry guys but I'm in the minority - 1NT followed by 3♥ for me. I don't like making my 2/1's on shape ten counts.

excellent point.....

 

 

Is our hand worth a game force opp most 11-13 junky hands..

I say yes...

1) may be cold

2) may make against non 100% defense.

3) may make against non 70% defense.

4) may make against 33% defense.

[Finch]

I completely agree this hand is worth forcing to game, but I have a question.

 

I have never played a forcing 1NT response to 1 major, so I don't know how it works.

 

What does it mean to respond 1NT, and then drive to game? Is that a way of showing a game force lacking in high cards?

[Chamaco]

I'm a 2H bidder.

This is a full opening hand (wouldn't you open 1st/2nd seat?).

 

Sure, we may end up in one of those hopeless 22 count games, but, oh well, it happens, and in any case we do have a suit to avoid 3NT in misfit and lack of high cards :-)

 

The hand complies both with distributional strength required for an opener AND has 2 defensive tricks, so I cannot see why we should go via 1NT forcing (a terrible way to go when we have unbalanced hands- if we have an alternative, that is...).

 

The 1NT response is a "least of evils" resource, to clean up the 2/1 response from invitational hands, but, "per se", it's quite a troublesome catchall bid.

 

If I bid 1NT and they preempt to 3/4m, I'd much rather prefer I had shown my shape and values with 2H.

[mike777]

I completely agree this hand is worth forcing to game, but I have a question.

 

I have never played a forcing 1NT response to 1 major, so I don't know how it works.

 

What does it mean to respond 1NT, and then drive to game?  Is that a way of showing a game force lacking in high cards?

Yes.

 

A couple of ways to play forcing no trump

1) drive to game based on upgrade of partners rebid

2) drive to game based on minimum LTC and not HCP.

3) rare but ..drive to game based on non system rebid but decent HCP and shape.

 

Please note all of this is a bit risky if playing semi-forcing nt where pard will pass with junky 5332 and junky 11-12 hcp.

[han]

It's funny, because i happened to perpetrate 1NT. Playing rubber bridge this hand would go 1♠ - 4♥ with the crowd I used to play with. So can understand wanting to force to game. I just didn't want partner to play me for more than I had. However, what I lacked in high cards, I certainly made up for it in shape. Luckily my LHO chose an unlucky time to psych a 2♥ overcall over my 1NT and his partner had 5 hearts and couldn't take a joke. Was much more fun defending 4♥ doubled than playing in 4♥ on the Hawaiian break. :rolleyes:

That was sheer genius Matt, bidding 1NT hoping that they would psych in your 7-card suit!

[Finch]

I completely agree this hand is worth forcing to game, but I have a question.

 

I have never played a forcing 1NT response to 1 major, so I don't know how it works.

 

What does it mean to respond 1NT, and then drive to game?  Is that a way of showing a game force lacking in high cards?

Yes.

 

A couple of ways to play forcing no trump

1) drive to game based on upgrade of partners rebid

2) drive to game based on minimum LTC and not HCP.

3) rare but ..drive to game based on non system rebid but decent HCP and shape.

 

Please note all of this is a bit risky if playing semi-forcing nt where pard will pass with junky 5332 and junky 11-12 hcp.

I play semi-forcing NT quite frequently; but one fundamental principle is that the 1NT response does not include any hand that wants to play in game opposite a minimum (unless you hit a big fit).

 

Playing forcing NT seems a whole different kettle of fish, as now you can decide whether to respond 1NT or 2H and in either case be sure of reaching game.

[coyot]

If you play any sophisticated major raises (i.e. Hardy), 1NT could at worst (from the "missing the game" point of view) cointain 3card trump support with no singleton or void and 11 HCP.

 

(And that only against 1st,2nd seat openers as you'd use Drury 2♣ for a 3card limit raise with a passed hand)

 

Under these conditions it is safe to play 1NT as semiforcing - i.e. a player that would not want to play a game against the above may pass. He will hardly pass with any good rebid available (6 spades, side 4card) - so it is really safe even with some spade support.

 

The only problem hands are long suits of your own - where you might expect a game on 22 HCP. A good workaround is to bid 2/1 as either GF or 9-11 HCP with a good 6card.

(Good meaning that if partner has doubleton honor, you have 6 tricks in NT, if partner has a small doubleton, you're willing to play at 4t level in your suit.)

 

If the immediate rebid by responder is the 2/1 suit, it shows this type of hand - and p will pass or offer a game contract.

[Finch]

The only problem hands are long suits of your own - where you might expect a game on 22 HCP. A good workaround is to bid 2/1 as either GF or 9-11 HCP with a good 6card.

(Good meaning that if partner has doubleton honor, you have 6 tricks in NT, if partner has a small doubleton, you're willing to play at 4t level in your suit.)

 

If the immediate rebid by responder is the 2/1 suit, it shows this type of hand - and p will pass or offer a game contract.

This is how Bridge World Standard plays it. Personally, I don't like it. One big benefit of playing 2/1 is that I can have the auction such as 1S-2D-2S-3D to show a very good diamond suit and a strong hand. If 3D is non-forcing here, then I have to invent something after 1S-2D-2S and I've lost half the benefit of playing 2/1 in the first place.

 

So if I were to play forcing 1NT I assume I can respond 1NT safely, and this is a clear advantage of the method.

 

Playing SF 1NT I either play invitational jumps (I usually play 1S-3H invitational as the type of hand you describe) or respond 1NT and hope for the best.

[Chamaco]

The only problem hands are long suits of your own - where you might expect a game on 22 HCP. A good workaround is to bid 2/1  as either GF or 9-11 HCP with a good 6card.

(Good meaning that if partner has doubleton honor, you have 6 tricks in NT, if partner has a small doubleton, you're willing to play at 4t level in your suit.)

 

If the immediate rebid by responder is the 2/1 suit, it shows this type of hand - and p will pass or offer a game contract.

This is how Bridge World Standard plays it. Personally, I don't like it. One big benefit of playing 2/1 is that I can have the auction such as 1S-2D-2S-3D to show a very good diamond suit and a strong hand. If 3D is non-forcing here, then I have to invent something after 1S-2D-2S and I've lost half the benefit of playing 2/1 in the first place.

Ditto.

the big advantage of playing 2/1 is to set a GF early without having to force with cumbersome bids.

 

Resorting to "quasi/GF" means losing 75% of this advantage

[HeartA]

yes, 2♥

[coyot]

The only problem hands are long suits of your own - where you might expect a game on 22 HCP. A good workaround is to bid 2/1  as either GF or 9-11 HCP with a good 6card.

(Good meaning that if partner has doubleton honor, you have 6 tricks in NT, if partner has a small doubleton, you're willing to play at 4t level in your suit.)

 

If the immediate rebid by responder is the 2/1 suit, it shows this type of hand - and p will pass or offer a game contract.

This is how Bridge World Standard plays it. Personally, I don't like it. One big benefit of playing 2/1 is that I can have the auction such as 1S-2D-2S-3D to show a very good diamond suit and a strong hand. If 3D is non-forcing here, then I have to invent something after 1S-2D-2S and I've lost half the benefit of playing 2/1 in the first place.

Ditto.

the big advantage of playing 2/1 is to set a GF early without having to force with cumbersome bids.

 

Resorting to "quasi/GF" means losing 75% of this advantage

Well, quasi GF can produce nice results (3NT on 22 HCP ;)). It basically tells partner: I have quite a good hand, if my suit is to become trumps or pull tricks in NT.

 

If you can't support partner's spades even after his 2♠ rebid, you either have a side 4card to bid now, or a hand good enough to use some 3card forcing (to try and get diamonds supported by p or his stoppers shown) or bid 4♦ (setting trumps).

 

Been playing this quasi-GF for a few years and I really don't recall any bidding disaster.

 

Anyway, partner has shown you good spades and you want to show him good diamonds? What for? If you have remaining suits stopped, you bid 3NT with minimum, 2NT with a good hand - and expect partner to bid 3♦ on 3card. If you have only one suit stopped, you bid it and p will either bid 3NT or support your diamonds or repeat his spades... And if you bid 4♦ over his bid, that will certainly show slam interest with good suit. wtp?

[asdfg2k]

Frances, I'm not sure you've had a response to your direct inquiry, although maybe I'm wrong.

 

IMO, a bid of 1nt followed by game is either:

 

1) a hand that is slightly better (or became better because of partner's response) than a flat limit raise. Maybe kxx-xxx-Kxx-KQxx after 1s-1nt-2c. You were preparing to bid 3s as indicative of the flat limit raise, but re-evaluated. (You only have to pray on this hand that your LHO doesn't ask a question which your partner responds to incompletely - if that happens, then you may be barred from bidding 4s - ooops, wrong venue...sorry)

 

2) a hand that is pretty much like the one posited - a little less than the HCP necessary to force to game with a 2/1, a bit too much to pre-empt (assuming 3H over 1S is such an animal - not all play it that way, of course) and a long enough suit (usually 7 cards) to play opposite a singleton with confidence and a void with perhaps a bit of trepidation.

 

Even with that said, I agree with Fred. The HCP and suit quality in this case are so choice (AJT; KQ) that partner will just not get it right if slam is in the works.

 

George

[Echognome]

The problem with 1NT planning on rebidding 4♥ is that it might not in fact be this hand. If you had the agreement that all game bids were to play, then this would seem to be the best route. However, if it goes 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ - 4♥, some may play that as a splinter agreeing clubs. I have to admit that this was a concern of mine playing with a partner I do not play with that often. However, Frances' assertion seems to be the correct one. Why not play that 1NT rebid of 4♥ shows this hand, whereas 2♥ rebid of 4♥ shows a hand that has more values.

[asdfg2k]

void

QJT98765

Q3

KQ8

 

1NT followed by 4h.

 

George