Deanrover Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Am playing at a table with 3 GIBs at the moment! Can't see how to select your convention card or how to see/select your opponents B) This has a lot of potential - especially for partnership bidding. Kudos to Fred, Uday and Gerardo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 I am not sure if GIB scores should be compared with the general BBOers. Maybe compare, yes, but don't let it affect scores? With GIB you can see all boards before you play, making comparison not meaningful..... Cool though. Very cool! How much is it going to cost Fred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanrover Posted July 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 This has potential to make tournaments run much more smoothly - very exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanrover Posted July 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Implementing the "Claim" function which works very well in Gib proper would be great. In the partnership bidding area you can't click the "GIB" button to adjust his (her?) speed. Also you don't seem to be able to set your system or GIB's which would be very valuable. The partnership bidding is very temperemental. I am trying it out with Beto right now, and it only works on half the hands, have to "redeal" the rest. GIB doesn't explain its bids. When you click on one for an explanation it asks you to explain! Don't seem to be able to include GIB in teams matches. This would be a great addition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Am playing at a table with 3 GIBs at the moment! Can't see how to select your convention card or how to see/select your opponents :rolleyes: This has a lot of potential - especially for partnership bidding. Kudos to Fred, Uday and Gerardo! are they "GIB"s as in really sophisticated (and expensive ) robots ? which have CC s available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Have we learned nothing from the Terminator and Battlestar Galatica? It is extremely dangerous to allow Bots free reign of any environment. Its only a matter of time before they break lose from human control and seek to destroy us all. DESTROY US ALL...DESTROY US ALL...DESTROY US ALL... Its terrifying that a computer professional like Fred would make such a basic mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoob Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 we only have to worry about that if the server is struck by lightning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 GIB....if you play with it long enough it will come up with some real strange bids. Maybe we could come up with a GIB individual, all GIB's sitting N,E,W, and humans sitting south. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 GIB....if you play with it long enough it will come up with some real strange bids. Maybe we could come up with a GIB individual, all GIB's sitting N,E,W, and humans sitting south. :rolleyes: There are all sorts of ideas like this that we will probably implement during the next few months. Team matches against a team of GIBs (or with 2 human pairs each teaming up with a pair of GIBs) is another idea with a lot of potential. Another interesting possibility involves tables with 2 humans, each playing with a GIB as their partner. If we disallowed kibitzers at such a table it would be nearly impossible to cheat. We might even let people play rubber bridge for real money under these cicumstances. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 GIB....if you play with it long enough it will come up with some real strange bids. Maybe we could come up with a GIB individual, all GIB's sitting N,E,W, and humans sitting south. :rolleyes: There are all sorts of ideas like this that we will probably implement during the next few months. Team matches against a team of GIBs (or with 2 human pairs each teaming up with a pair of GIBs) is another idea with a lot of potential. Another interesting possibility involves tables with 2 humans, each playing with a GIB as their partner. If we disallowed kibitzers at such a table it would be nearly impossible to cheat. We might even let people play rubber bridge for real money under these cicumstances. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Three quick comments: 1. Using GIBs to decease variance and eliminating cheating in events is an interesting idea. In particular, I like the idea of running Indy tournaments using GIBs as North/East with humans competing as South and West 2. The rubber bridge is also a nice idea. With this said and done, you should consult with some lawyers about the regulations involved in running a sports books. I know that the online poker sites are typically incorporated outside the US. Some owners have given up US citizenship. 3. On earlier occasions you mentioned that you wanted to develop/promote BBO Advanced as some kind of standard bidding system. I know that this has slipped in priority. With this said and done, you will need to select a bidding system for the GIBs to use. Perhaps this ideas time has come arround again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Have we learned nothing from the Terminator and Battlestar Galatica? It is extremely dangerous to allow Bots free reign of any environment. Its only a matter of time before they break lose from human control and seek to destroy us all. DESTROY US ALL...DESTROY US ALL...DESTROY US ALL... Its terrifying that a computer professional like Fred would make such a basic mistake. You must have missed the crucial scenes.The will not destroy us.We will comingle, make babies and evolve.Just as laws evolve and are shaped by moralistic impulses, so shall bots, bridge and babies.Repeat after me Variance is good. Our survival is in the outliers not the mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rona_ Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Signed up to play in a tournament with a partner, and we opened an invisible teaching table to play with the bots. The tournament started without us and we got messages that "the player is playing in another tournament" ;) Did the bots do that? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sceptic Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I was playing with GIb's and I asked what a bid meant, they refused to answer, should I report them to abuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaapo Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Do we also see GIBs kibbitzing (gibbitzing?) at the tables? And, more importantly, do GIBs commentate at Vugraph broadcasts in near future? ;) But, more seriously, GIB seems to be a nice (although not so important) feature - at least to play with now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Do we also see GIBs kibbitzing (gibbitzing?) at the tables? And, more importantly, do GIBs commentate at Vugraph broadcasts in near future? ;) But, more seriously, GIB seems to be a nice (although not so important) feature - at least to play with now and then. During today's vugraph Walddk would occasionally ask GIB what it would have bid or played. I personally found this to be interesting. He was careful to emphasize the difference between GIB's analysis (which is single dummy) and Deep Finesse's analysis (which is double dummy). Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 this is simply awesome... oh, richard... i'm sure fred insisted on the 3 laws of gibotics to be incorporated into gib's hard wiring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdct Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I am not sure if GIB scores should be compared with the general BBOers. Maybe compare, yes, but don't let it affect scores? With GIB you can see all boards before you play, making comparison not meaningful.... I assume GIB makes all of its decisions on a single-dummy basis and doesn't "peek" at other players' cards. One thing I have noticed is that GIB is really slow. I think that if it were to become a pay-for-use service, some more meaty computer processing power will need to be dedicated to GIB to have it play more in tempo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Battlestar Galactica rocks. Best show on TV. With regards to the CPU issue, agreed with Dave - unless you have it basically cranked at maximum it becomes a drag to get done. Richard's ideas are as usual, sharp, cutting-edged, and often correct in scope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I am not sure if GIB scores should be compared with the general BBOers. Maybe compare, yes, but don't let it affect scores? With GIB you can see all boards before you play, making comparison not meaningful.... I assume GIB makes all of its decisions on a single-dummy basis and doesn't "peek" at other players' cards. One thing I have noticed is that GIB is really slow. I think that if it were to become a pay-for-use service, some more meaty computer processing power will need to be dedicated to GIB to have it play more in tempo. just turn up the speed buttons and see how easy it isnt to count the hands :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 GIB....if you play with it long enough it will come up with some real strange bids. Maybe we could come up with a GIB individual, all GIB's sitting N,E,W, and humans sitting south. :( There are all sorts of ideas like this that we will probably implement during the next few months. Team matches against a team of GIBs (or with 2 human pairs each teaming up with a pair of GIBs) is another idea with a lot of potential. Another interesting possibility involves tables with 2 humans, each playing with a GIB as their partner. If we disallowed kibitzers at such a table it would be nearly impossible to cheat. We might even let people play rubber bridge for real money under these cicumstances. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com or have a team game where you and a friend are playing say both North and the everyone else is GIBS :lol: I tried to set up a team game earlier and do that but it isnt implemented in that. Or a True individual where North, West , and East are all GIB's and the only humans are south. It would be interesting for this to see the travellers. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdct Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 With regards to the CPU issue, agreed with Dave - unless you have it basically cranked at maximum it becomes a drag to get done.I assume that when you set GIB to play faster, it will generally play worse as it hasn't had time to fully calculate all of the possible eventualities. Is all the GIB processing done centrally on the BBO server? Maybe some sort of distributed computing model could be used to share the GIB processing amongst the machines of the human players at the table. I would like to be able to get four GIB players playing against eachother. Even better would be to run five or six tables of GIB players against eachother at varying speeds to produce a datum. I also assume that GIB has no way telling what system its opponents are playing which kind of makes it a bit unfair. Perhaps when a GIB player is at the table results will only be meaningful if everyone is playing SAYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 With regards to the CPU issue, agreed with Dave - unless you have it basically cranked at maximum it becomes a drag to get done.I assume that when you set GIB to play faster, it will generally play worse as it hasn't had time to fully calculate all of the possible eventualities. Is all the GIB processing done centrally on the BBO server? Maybe some sort of distributed computing model could be used to share the GIB processing amongst the machines of the human players at the table. I would like to be able to get four GIB players playing against eachother. Even better would be to run five or six tables of GIB players against eachother at varying speeds to produce a datum. I also assume that GIB has no way telling what system its opponents are playing which kind of makes it a bit unfair. Perhaps when a GIB player is at the table results will only be meaningful if everyone is playing SAYC. You are correct. The faster GIB plays, the worse it plays. GIB currently runs on your PC - not on our server. A distributed model (ie having GIB use the resources of several computers to help it solve the same problem) would likely require a massive rewrite of GIB itself. Though Matt Ginsberg might well find this to be an interesting challenge, I seriously doubt that he will have the time to do this during the next couple of years. I also doubt that there is another person on planet earth who would have a chance to successfully complete such a project. However, it is not at all unlikely that we will have a server-based version of GIB running by the end of the summer. In my opinion, this facility will have a few useful applications, but the sort of things that you can currently do with GIB and BBO will likely continue to work via a client-based version of GIB. Uday is more hopeful than I am about the usefulness of a server-based GIB. You can have 4 GIBs playing against each other. Start a total points, rubber, or teaching table and you can do just that. GIB knows the basic structure of various bidding systems as well as dozens of conventions. It also has facilities whereby the user explain his bids to his GIB opponents. I have not had a chance to make an interface between BBO and these aspects of GIB yet, but this will be near the top of my list of things to do when I get back from the ACBL Nationals in early August. While I am away, if you have any more questions about GIB, you might try asking Stephen Pickett (sfbp on BBO). Stephen has consider experience writing software that interfaces with GIB. He was very generous with his advice to me when I was getting started on the BBO-GIB programming (thanks!). Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanrover Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Has this software re-write made it easier to incorporate other bots into BBO? The increased competition would be useful on many levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Another interesting possibility involves tables with 2 humans, each playing with a GIB as their partner. If we disallowed kibitzers at such a table it would be nearly impossible to cheat. We might even let people play rubber bridge for real money under these cicumstances. I think this would only be true if you implement server-based GIB. As long as GIB is running on the same computer as yourself, it would be possible to hack into the communication and see its cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Has this software re-write made it easier to incorporate other bots into BBO? The increased competition would be useful on many levels. The robot interface that I created is not GIB-specific. It would not take much work to make it possible for other bridge-playing engines to work with BBO. No way we are going to get involved in this until at least we have had time to evaluate the potential of GIB on BBO (both in terms of how much the membership uses it and how much revenue it generates). Besides that, Bridge Base Inc, has a strong business connection with GIB and you might say that I have an emotional attachment with this program (I have been a friend of Matt Ginsberg for years and I have watched GIB "grow up"). Even if GIB is the only robot we offer, I think our members will be well-served. There is only one other computer bridge program that comes close to GIB in terms of its quality of play (a Dutch program named Jack). Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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