6-5 majors

[the hog]

"I think 2H is fine."

 

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

 

Scoreup +170, -620.

Maybe you pass 2H on that. I know better to bid 2S.

That comment is so silly it doesn't even deserve a response.

[whereagles]

"I think 2H is fine."

 

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

 

Scoreup +170, -620.

Maybe you pass 2H on that. I know better to bid 2S.

That comment is so silly it doesn't even deserve a response.

Then why did you reply?

[awm]

"I think 2H is fine."

 

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

 

Scoreup +170, -620.

Well let's look at this hand. Club lead and continuation, ruffed in hand. Heart to ten, losing to the ace. Another club is ruffed. Heart to the king, RHO showing out. Oops, not making.

 

In fact most 4-1 breaks seem to set this contract. But hey, that's unlucky, we should bid it right? Indeed it appears to make around 2/3 of the time. But won't 3♥ also get us to game opposite:

 

x Qxx Kxxxx Qxxx

 

xx Ax Kxxxx xxxx

 

x xx KJxxx QJxxx

 

If we take as a given that partner has less than ten points, less than four hearts, and less than three spades, I think the odds of game are rather poor. Even in the hand you gave, with essentially no wastage, game was odds-on but not cold.

[inquiry]

using 3♥ as 6-5 non-forcing seems somewhat limiting B) It will not arise often, and in the interim, you will not be able to handle (at least, not well) hands that the rest of us would bid 3♥, forcing. However, 3♥ non-forcing, 5-5 or better is okay playing a big ♣ method: maybe that is what you do in ftf bridge?

Actually it is impossible to play a leap here to 3M as non-forcing 6-5 or 5-5 quite freely in a non-big club system. The system I like makes this very playable. While it is not a big club system, it does has a limited opening bid of one a suit. This reminds me of the old ROMEX with the dynamic 1NT, except my 1NT is real (I like 14-16). But the 1C/1D/1H/1S opening bids are all limited because the strong hands are removed and handled differently.

• Strong balanced hands open 2NT (20=bad 22), 2D (mulit- 22-24), 2C (25+)
  
• Strong one suiters are removed via, 2D (mulit with acol 2 in either minor), 2C (acol 2 in either major or any one suiter true GF)
  
• Strong three suiters are removed through a conventional follow up to 2C opening bids (strong is as weak as 16 hcp on many hands)
  
• Strong 2 suiters are opened with MishoVnBg's MisIry transfer bids at the three level
  

In addition, this system adopts Riton 2♣ (well horribly modfified, sorry Henri') with all strong opening hands unsuited for jump to new suit. This is almost identical to what Hannie described, except my lower limit is 15 hcp. This allows all the temporizing hands to start 2C, leaving jumps for real two suiters.

 

But since the opening is by definition limited, opener can not force responder to bid again with a jump in a new suit nor a 2C rebid. Responder can pass both!!! To pass 2C, he knows 1) opener does not have 6-5 or 5-5 hand or he would have jumped. Opener does not have monster first suit (open 2C or jump to 3 of suit), so a responder with just clubs and a weak hand can choose to pass. I must say this is very rare indeed, but it is entirely possible (part of the changes I made to the excellent riton 2C). Likewise, if opener jumps in a new suit he is showing 5 losers or possibly a "four loser" hand without many controls. Responder is free to pass this as well, of course it is highly ENCOURAGING.

 

I have posted details on my current methods on the web at http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com in a chapter format. None of them are very long, but one can check the details of any one area as they wish. If you look at any of it and find any broken links, let me know.

[Winstonm]

This certainly is a good example of one of the benefits from a system that limits opening bids - you can jump around with shape without overstating your HCP; however, for many of us stuck with SAYC or 2/1, a jump to 3H will too often get a 3N response from partner and then we end up too high.

 

Therefore, we are pretty much stuck with a 2H rebid, hoping partner will have enough to make some other call.

 

Winston

[the hog]

"I think 2H is fine."

 

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

 

Scoreup +170, -620.

Well let's look at this hand. Club lead and continuation, ruffed in hand. Heart to ten, losing to the ace. Another club is ruffed. Heart to the king, RHO showing out. Oops, not making.

 

In fact most 4-1 breaks seem to set this contract. But hey, that's unlucky, we should bid it right? Indeed it appears to make around 2/3 of the time. But won't 3♥ also get us to game opposite:

 

x Qxx Kxxxx Qxxx

 

xx Ax Kxxxx xxxx

 

x xx KJxxx QJxxx

 

If we take as a given that partner has less than ten points, less than four hearts, and less than three spades, I think the odds of game are rather poor. Even in the hand you gave, with essentially no wastage, game was odds-on but not cold.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think you are forgetting the form of scoring.

 

I don't think you would get to game with ALL of the examples you posted, certainly not your last one and maybe not the penultimate one.

[beatrix45]

:huh: Most of the time partner will have less than 11 HCP. I have 13 HCP. At IMPs I want a plus score. I am going to trash an off percentage but potential heart game by bidding 2♠. No apologies. Bridge is a game of percentages. I have been wrong before once or twice.

[helene_t]

What about 4♠? If we can't figure out how to convey useful information to partner, then at least don't tell the opps anything either.

[awm]

I don't think you would get to game with ALL of the examples you posted, certainly not your last one and maybe not the penultimate one.

Isn't 3♥ a game force? Hard to stay out of game then...

 

Of course, this whole discussion is moot if your bids mean something different. With one partner, my rebid would be 3♥, which shows 6+♠, 5+♥, and a five loser hand with approximately 11-14 high card points. Yes, that bid really IS part of our system.

 

But my assumption was that you're playing something like BBO Advanced here, and I'm pretty sure that in those methods (or most 2/1 and standard methods) 3♥ is game force.

[inquiry]

But my assumption was that you're playing something like BBO Advanced here, and I'm pretty sure that in those methods (or most 2/1 and standard methods) 3♥ is game force.

As a general rule, bidding questions to be restricted to 2/1, or bbo advanced should be asked the the SAYC and 2/1 Discussion Forum. My assumption has always been if it is asked in this forum (advanced and expert-class), by definition the request is for any type of treatment.

 

Thus the people with "specialized" bids should be allowed to discuss them. For instance, if your 3H shows this exact hand and few hcp, how do you show the true game force major two suiter? Discussions like this interest many, and those only interested in standard 2/1 GF can skip over the specialized stuff here, or ask questions only in the appropriate forum.

[Free]

3♥, I have only 5 losers and very nice distribution. Only the ♥ quality is a little poor, but what the heck.

[MickyB]

AKQJxx J8xxx Q x

 

When I was given this hand, my instinct was to rebid 2♥. I've now realised that I have no idea what to bid over a 2♠ rebid from partner, so I may have to reconsider B) It has been suggested to me that 4♥ is a better bid than 3♥ because it is weaker than 3♥ rebidding 4♥, but opposite 2-3 in the majors we will land up in hearts when spades looks more promising.

 

This hand occured in the Spring Fours, and was a source of contention between a friend and his partner when 4♥ went one off. FWIW, Zia said that the choice between 2♥ and 3♥ is a matter of style!

[hrothgar]

I'm just happy that The Hog and Free chose the same bid that I did...

Better to have agreement with your partners than the majority

[whereagles]

AKQJxx J8xxx Q x

 

When I was given this hand, my instinct was to rebid 2♥. I've now realised that I have no idea what to bid over a 2♠ rebid from partner

Now, that's easy. You make one final try in 3S.

 

1S 1/2x

2H 2S

3S

[Double !]

why rebid 3S instead of 3H? (bid 3S and P will read you for 15-17 with 6-4 in majors, or so I thought.)

[whereagles]

3S because pard might be unwilling to go to game on xx of spades if I don't encourage him.

[flytoox]

3S because pard might be unwilling to go to game on xx of spades if I don't encourage him.

With xx of spade doesnot give you much chance. The key to this hand is pd's Heart support. Pd's 1N denies 3 card supoort(If he has then he must have a limited raise with three cards), Without heart support you will have at least two losers in heart suit.

[bearmum]

I like 4H direct. It's a "feel" bid.

 

I really feel that you don't trust partner's bid BECAUSE

a 4♥ "feel" might not be good because P has bid a forcing 1NT(maybe on a REALLY weak suit that couldn't be bid) ---- IMHO you need to bid 2♥ ( showing 4+♥) --- I KNOW u have 5 of them BUT minimum points and u have NO idea what pard's 1NT is ;) ) then AFTER partner's NEXT bid you can decide if GAME ( or maybe slam?) is on

 

GUESS IT'S ALL ABOUT BIDDING THE SYSTEM :rolleyes: :D

[the hog]

As an aside, there is a nice structure you can use here which is part of "The Science".

 

After a 1NT response:

2C = t/f to D

2D = t/f to H

2H = t/f to S

2S = t/f to C

 

Using these rebids by opener allows a slower better development of the auction eg

1S 1N

2D 2S

3H non forcing

 

Would show a hand similar to this.

[SoTired]

Hog's transfer rebids are intriguing. Seems great except getting screwed with 5323, rebid 2S, and end in 3C on 7/8-card fit. Is there a link that has the whole structure?

 

My humble thoughts for normal 2/1:

 

1) I play 1N shows <12 and probably <3s. That's it. Where in 2/1 does 1S 1N likely deny 4+ hearts? Why is 1S 1N likely a minor 5/5? Did I miss a lecture somewhere?

 

2) If you bid 3H, that is a GF j/s. Partner with 4 hearts may go slamming expecting you to have more than 1 key card.

 

3) 3N shows a solid major with 15-17. You have the solid major but this hand is too lite.

 

4) 2S sells the heart suit out. It also undervalues the hand.

 

5) 3S also sells the heart suit out. It denies solid spades with 15-17. It's great if partner has some minor suit honors and can scrouge 3 tricks for a successful 3N bid. But that is unlikely. Most likely partner's 3N will be stuck in dummy running the spades. Afterwards leading away from the HJ looking at several unreachable minor tricks in the other hand. Playing 3N on this hand could be ugly or perfect. But after a 3S rebid responder is likely to bid 3N and you will be clueless about which contract is best.

 

6) This is a MAJOR 6-5 for goodness sakes. Won't you please try a little harder to play in one of the majors?

 

7) Seems we are left with the obvious rebid of 2H. We have a good answer for every responder action: 3H over 2S thru 3D, 4H over 3H/3S, and pass over 3N (who bids that?). True, responder may pass with the magical ♠x ♥HHx hand. But even that hand fails 4H when they split badly.

 

Seems the odds and logic highly favor the 2H rebid.

[the hog]

5332 shapes are no problem of course as they are opened in the approriate NT range, or else you have a rebid of an invitational 2NT.

[MickyB]

1) I play 1N shows <12 and probably <3s. That's it. Where in 2/1 does 1S 1N likely deny 4+ hearts? Why is 1S 1N likely a minor 5/5? Did I miss a lecture somewhere?

Given your length in the suits, I think partner's most likely shape is 2344...