preempt or not preempt....

[jjsb]

yes that is the question .

i think there's different option on that following deal . IMP all vulnerable you hold :

 

J

AQ108

-----

Q10965432 (8 hope i count well)

 

RHO dealer pass , to you .

 

regards

syl

[inquiry]

Well, as I have advocated here several times, I generally follow rule of 20, where you count one point for each card in your two longest suits, and add that to your hcp. With this hand,

 

J

AQ108

-----

Q10965432

 

you have 9 hcp and 12 cards in your two long suits. This = 21 point. Then I make adjustments. The first is I subtract a point of each singleton or doubleton Q or J. So I lose 1 point for the singleton SPADE JACK. Then one of my additions is for good intermediates in my two long suits. Here I have T8 or hearts and T9 of clubs. I add one point for both tens (or T and then 98 ) in my long suits, here I have better than that, so I add at least one point. All in all after adding and substracting point for the intial count, this is at least 21 points by rule for 20, so I open 1C.  After all, this hand has great offensive stregth. With only 1.5 quick tricks in a queen rich hand, and virtually no defense, this opening bid may not be popular, but there you go. That is what I would bid and why.

 

Do I open all rule of 20 hands after subtraction and additions? No. When the anchor suit (longest suit) is so weak, say K5432 for instance and a bare 20 count, I will pass in first or second seat.

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

yes that is the question .

i think there's different option on that following deal . IMP all vulnerable you hold :

 

J

AQ108

-----

Q10965432 (8 hope i count well)

 

RHO dealer pass , to you .

 

regards

syl

 

Easy opening bid playing MOSCITO

I open 1D, showing 4+ hearts, ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

 

Playing standard, I'm passing.

Side 4 card major, side void argue against a preempt.

 

Too weak for 1C

[inquiry]

Too weak for 1C

 

Too weak for 1CLUB? Even Goren opens this one. His evaluation is add 3 points for void, 2 ponts for singleton. So he has 9 hcp and 5 distribution count. That was 14. He advocated opening  ALL 14 count, and any 13 count with a rebid available. If this isn't too weak for Charles Goren, how can it be too weak in modern bidem up bridge...  :)

[jjsb]

ok so we may continue now whatever u choose (pass or 1C ) the auction is same , 1S LHO opp bid 2D RHO 2S , to you

 

regards

syl

[inquiry]

ok so we may continue now whatever u choose (pass or 1C ) the auction is same , 1S LHO opp bid 2D RHO 2S , to you

 

regards

syl

 

The passers have it easy, a double here showing CLUBS and HEARTS might work out ok. Partner will not be expecting a lot of defense, but you will not be overjoyed if partner rebids 3 or 4 DIAMONDS....

 

For those who opened 1C, a double of 2SPADES would still show hearts and clubs... but you can not risk a double with so little defense. Do you really want to play 2Sx on this hand with your partner expecting a typical opening hand? So no, if I opened 1CLUB, I am in there with a 3CLUB rebid. Partner will probably realize I am short in spades from his own spade holding, and will see that I didn't raise diamonds or double. Don't know if this will help him, but we shall see how the auction continues....

[Codo]

Hi Ben,

 

I am one of your greatest fans, but this time, you make me shiver.  :)

I will never ever open 1 Club, but if I did for some reason, I would never ever bid 3 Club now. For my understanding, this shows a good hand. And I don`t have a good hand.

 

Because of the distribution, I would pass first and x later. Okay, X is not exactly showing 1,4,0,8 hands, but as always, nothing is perfect.

 

Kind regards

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Hi Ben,

 

I am one of your greatest fans, but this time, you make me shiver.  :)

I will never ever open 1 Club, but if I did for some reason, I would never ever bid 3 Club now. For my understanding, this shows a good hand. And I don`t have a good hand.

 

Because of the distribution, I would pass first and x later. Okay, X is not exactly showing 1,4,0,8 hands, but as always, nothing is perfect.

 

Kind regards

 

Roland

 

Thank you, kind words... and I am a big fan of your post as well... Now to the bidding of 3CLUBS.  The question of bidding or not bidding over 2S, I think, hinges a little bit on partnership style. Would 2NT here be good/bad 2NT? Is pass after your partner's forcing 2 Diamond Bid forcing? What will your partner play you for if you bid a free 3C (assuming you are or are not playing good/bad 2NT)?

 

But regardless of all else, I bid 3C here for the same reason I opened. This is an offensive hand, and I want to play the contract. (you have a play for 5 CLUBS opposite as little as Sxxx HJx Dxxxxx CKxx and even same hand without the HJ.) However, I realize that opening 1C would not be a very popular choice... If I had to guess, I would say 50% will bid 3/4/5 clubs, 30% would pass and 20% would open something (1C, 1H or if moscito, 1D).

 

I guess you could pass and pull if your partner is obliged to rebid after his forcing 2D (surely you will not pass 2S if you think your partner can too?). However, I suspect with your diamond void, you may not be all that thrilled to hear what his rebid will be. His diamonds were good enough for a forcing 2D, will he know that with 6-2 or 7-1 in minors that bidding 3D is wrong when passed back to him? I think not. Especially if you pass. What are you going to do over 3 Diamonds. I shudder to think, but I suspect it will be either a not very descriptive 3H or you will rebid your club suit now at the four level.

 

And if the bidding become more competitive (west ups the anti with 3S bid), and partner has an undisclosed club fit, will he know it is ok to show it?

 

I maybe wrong, but with wild distribution, I am bidding, and I am going to freely rebid my long suit. Now partner will know that clubs are in the picture for a potential contract. Partner already promised an excellent five or more likely 6 Diamonds for his 2D bid, so when I fail to support him and rebid my suit, at least he will know I have bunches of clubs. If he is looking at three spades (not unlikely given the lack of jump by my RHO), he will also know I am short and a) didn't raise his likely six card suit, and :( didn't make a takeout double to show hearts. A thinking partner will probably play me for lots and lots of clubs and not much defense (if I was 1-4-2-6 or 1-3-2-7 or similiar I might clearly reopen with double... with more diamonds, I would support diamond). The picture would be different if partner was short in spades of course, he would assume I couldn't double 2S for takeout due to spade legnth and heart shortage. But if he is looking at spades, he will know what is happening.

 

So the biggest problem you are going to face, looking at your void, is a partner with a good six or fair seven card diamond suit trying to insisting on diamonds. With  your 8 bagger, it best to get them bid again while there is still time. At least, in my humble opinion.

[Codo]

Hi Ben,

 

I don`t think the biggest problem are diamond bids from my pd. The biggest problem is the partnership understanding.

If I open f.e.

xx, AKx,x,AQJxxxx

1 Club and rebid 3 club after the given bidding, I cannot use the same way to describe the given hand. The hand we are talking about is surely very offensive. But in my bidding understand, 1 club followed by 3 Club shows a much stronger hand in defence and offense.

 

And my part is not able to make any good judgement descissions, if I bid both hands the same way.

 

But I changed my mind on another bid: Pass first and double later is plain silly, pd will never understand my hand.

So now I judge for a 5 Club opening bid.

This throws the bomb early and may hit two opps instead of 1 part. I never open high with a four card major, but this hand must be the exception.

Even if pd has 4 hearts. Did you really want to play this hand there? If he has 5+ hearts, the bid was nuts. But again, then they may find their spade fit...

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[LukeG]

I grew up playing Roth-Stone in which this is an easy and obvious pass.  I would also pass playing SAYC or 2/1 because I like to have 3 controls (A=2, K=1) for an opening one bid.  Playing a strong club system I would either open 2C or pass depending on my mood.

[inquiry]

Hi Ben,

 

I don`t think the biggest problem are diamond bids from my pd. The biggest problem is the partnership understanding.

If I open f.e.

xx, AKx,x,AQJxxxx

1 Club and rebid 3 club after the given bidding, I cannot use the same way to describe the given hand. The hand we are talking about is surely very offensive. But in my bidding understand, 1 club followed by 3 Club shows a much stronger hand in defence and offense.

 

And my part is not able to make any good judgement descissions, if I bid both hands the same way.

 

But I changed my mind on another bid: Pass first and double later is plain silly, pd will never understand my hand.

So now I judge for a 5 Club opening bid.

This throws the bomb early and may hit two opps instead of 1 part. I never open high with a four card major, but this hand must be the exception.

Even if pd has 4 hearts. Did you really want to play this hand there? If he has 5+ hearts, the bid was nuts. But again, then they may find their spade fit...

 

Hi Roland,

 

The fact that there are so many ways to handle hands like this is one of the things that make Bridge so fascinating. Pass, 1C, 3C, 4C, 5C all can be right. How you bid will be based upon  your personal philosphy and previous experiences. I will not argue against an initial pass or 5C. I still stick with my 1C, in the full realization that it will not be the most popular choice (despite Goren count suggesting this is 14 or so point hand).

 

I think partner will forgive the little white lie. Let;s compare hands... your xx, AKx,x,AQJxxxx has  2S, 1H, 1D and 1C loser. The actual hand J  AQT8 void QT9xxxxx loses 1S, 2H, and 2C. So both can probably make 2C on their own. So offensively they are about equal. Defensively, of course the hand you showed is much, much stronger, but since I don't plan to play any number of spades doubled short of 4S, and maybe not even then, the lack of defensive stregnth is not a big problem for me with such a freak. I can imagine if you open 5Clubs you will play there, I will probably end up in 4, 5, or 6 clubs after the 2D free bid by partner.

 

Ben

[jjsb]

so here's the 4 hands for that deal :

 

-------------Q54

-------------96

-------------AKQ765

-------------K8

 

AK10876--------------932

43----------------------KJ752

842--------------------J1093

AJ----------------------7

 

-------------J

-------------AQ108

-------------void

-------------Q10965432

 

i let u think about the best auction seeing 4 hands , i'll not write mine :P , just that we didn't reach the "good" contract of 5C. I have decided to pass but i'm pretty sure after a deep thougth  that hand don't deserve not beeing open . i think it's a nice things with your partner u have a clear things about ur opening choice. it should be a good idea to decide a rules (there's many) and that when u have an hand u use it . This way there will be no surprise in the pair . also one other important with your partner is to decide what about preempt ? are u disciplined ? not disciplined?  in what vulnerability ? when ?what is the few things u would accept ? etc.

 

regards

syl

[inquiry]

so here's the 4 hands for that deal :

 

-------------Q54

-------------96

-------------AKQ765

-------------K8

 

AK10876--------------932

43----------------------KJ752

842--------------------J1093

AJ----------------------7

 

-------------J

-------------AQ108

-------------void

-------------Q10965432

 

i let u think about the best auction seeing 4 hands , i'll not write mine :P , just that we didn't reach the "good" contract of 5C. I have decided to pass but i'm pretty sure after a deep thougth  that hand don't deserve not beeing open . i think it's a nice things with your partner u have a clear things about ur opening choice. it should be a good idea to decide a rules (there's many) and that when u have an hand u use it . This way there will be no surprise in the pair . also one other important with your partner is to decide what about preempt ? are u disciplined ? not disciplined?  in what vulnerability ? when ?what is the few things u would accept ? etc.

 

regards

syl

 

Roland, your revised 5 CLUB opening bid solves the actual hand nicely, winning 7C, 3D, and 1H effortlessly. I suspect my 1C opening will land us in the same contract. Partner with a shakey spade stopper and two little hearts might try to steer the contract to notrump, but of course I will not stand for that. If they bid 4S and he doubles, we are on our way to a good result, if I pass, down three for +800 and if I pull, we get the +600. And we will not get to slam and go down, because if partner vizualizes the hand you speculated my free 3C bid shows (xx, AKx,x,AQJxxxx), when I refuse to cue-bid spades, partner without a control will have to settle for only 5 clubs when I refuse to let him play 3NT.

 

I think the only people that have real trouble with this pair of hands are those who in first seat pass or open only 3C (over natural 4C vul, surely north carries to 5C). It would be interesting to try other hands for north and see what works out best in the long run. On this pair of hands, the passers will have a difficult time trying to convince their partners to let them play in clubs, much less five clubs unless they simply keep insisting. I can easily see some people playing in diamonds after an intial pass by south. And opposite a 3C opening bid, even vul, will North realize that there are 11 sure winners looking at two quick losers in both majors?

[Tcyk]

I perfect hand for Moscito. ... and I feel sure 5C would be reached. Also would probably succeed with anyone playing canape style opening bids.

[mishovnbg]

Partnership mutual trust is most important for me! I prefer to lose board, instead to lose partner ::).

But if u dont open preempt with 8 card suit and not enough H i must after decide board alone. I dont think that if i have such hand and i pass or bid 1CL at my next turn of bid level will be 2SP ( depend of opp ofcourse) B). I will bid 5CL and give my p chance to make decision if opp also bid.

Misho

[Wackojack]

Easy opening bid playing MOSCITO

I open 1D, showing 4+ hearts, ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

 

Playing standard, I'm passing.

Side 4 card major, side void argue against a preempt.

 

Too weak for 1C

 

Moving on 12 years and you now open 5♣. Age making you more daring? :rolleyes:

[nige1]

yes that is the question . I think there's different option on that following deal . IMP all vulnerable you hold :

♠ J ♥ A Q T 8 ♦- ♣ Q T 9 6 5 4 3 2 (8 hope i count well) RHO dealer pass , to you .

IMO 5♣ = 10, 1♣ = 9, 4♣ = 8, 3♣ = 7, Pass = 6.

Playing Jasmine ♣, you might open 2♥ (8-12HCP, 4+ ♥s, 5+ ♣s / 5+ ♦s).

[kuhchung]

Oh man, thanks a lot Diana for this :)

[jdonn]

I would just pass since nothing seems to fit. I would hope to be able to catch up later. The reasonable opening choices seem to be 1♣ and 5♣, and I would probably choose one of those if I wasn't vul. Maybe 5♣ w/r 1♣ w/w.

[jdeegan]

I am a bit confused. Why is this a problem? The hand presented looks like the most obvious 5♣ opener I can imagine. Granted, there might be some table feel to suggest something else, but I can't picture what that might be.

[gszes]

No style points for me as I prefer to simply bash away with a simple

 

4c

 

There is no point in pretending we want to keep hearts or 3n open as possible contracts. We have 1 defensive trick and the huge size of our club suit may well downgrade any club honors p has for defense. The best way to describe hands such as this are preempts. This hand has just enough extra to make 4c a worthwhile effort. At these colors p should expect me to deliver 8 tricks so they will need to find 3 in their hand to raise to game. P will also be forewarned about our lack of defense should the opps bid. Lots of pluses not many negatives. We could be too high in 4c with the opps having only a partial but that rates to happen a small % of the time. A modest case can be made for 5c since it ups the ante on preemption and has the potential for a vul game bonus if p has the right seeing eye cards and there is no rational way to search for those cards. The downside is not only the extra 300 when things go badly but the greatly increased probability of being x than the 4c opening adding a ton more negative.

 

Opening 1c is going to be a nightmare almost no matter how the bidding proceeds. Lack of defense and unwillingness to play anything but clubs are a huge detriment to the go slow approach. It sounds safe in theory but the practical application in competitive auctions makes 1c a semi reckless choice without the benefits of game bonus a 5c opener will have (though the 1c opener has less risk balancing those two extremes out).

 

4c = 8 3c = 6 5c = 4 1c = 4