BPO-004B

[flytoox]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

[luis]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

 

Example:

2c - 2d

2s - 3d

3h - 3s

3n - 4c

 

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.

You can't describe the hand better.

[flytoox]

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

 

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.

 

 

Regards

 

Hongjun

[Walddk]

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

 

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.

 

 

Regards

 

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

 

Roland

[luis]

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

 

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.

 

 

Regards

 

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

 

Roland

I think you are free to use a Splinter is just a judgement call. I don't think the system goes far to this point telling us what to do. :-)

[Finch]

Sadly the 3S bid didn't show 3-card spade support, any more than the auction 1S - 1NT - 2H - 2S shows 3-card spade support.

 

Now, bidding 3D works like a charm if opener rebids 3NT: something like

 

2C - 2D - 2S - 3D- 3NT - 4S

 

is a perfect description of your hand.

 

But partner might do something else.

 

2C - 2D - 2S - 3D -

 

4C (black two-suiter). Ouch. Now what? 5S? Might be too high. 4S? He'll have no idea we have Kxx as we could have xx.

 

3H - step 1, should be easy... but 3S doesn't show 3-card support; if we bid 3S and partner just raises to 4 we're on a complete guess whether to bid on or not. If we bid 4S, maybe it shows this hand.. but maybe it shows less good spades (say xxx and KQxxxx in diamonds).

 

There isn't a perfect answer to this problem. If partner has AQxxx Ax AK AKxx then 3D is the best chance to get us to the excellent 7D contract. If partner has AQJxxx AKQ - AKxx then raising spades will get us to the excellent 7S contract; bidding diamonds first will make life much more difficult.

[flytoox]

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

 

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.

 

 

Regards

 

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

 

Roland

I dont know. What I know is that splinter Doesnot deny keycard in BBO.

[flytoox]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

 

Example:

2c - 2d

2s - 3d

3h - 3s

3n - 4c

 

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.

You can't describe the hand better.

Well, if auction preceeds as you planned, that would be great.

 

However things can go in a very different way.

 

First, 3S doesnot show such good support. It only shows spade tolerance. Pd will be very worrying about the trump strength.

 

Second, if pd bid 4S after your 3S, you will be in a very difficult position. DO you bid 5C or not? Do you bid 4N? Do you pass?

[luis]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

 

Example:

2c - 2d

2s - 3d

3h - 3s

3n - 4c

 

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.

You can't describe the hand better.

Well, if auction preceeds as you planned, that would be great.

 

However things can go in a very different way.

 

First, 3S doesnot show such good support. It only shows spade tolerance. Pd will be very worrying about the trump strength.

 

Second, if pd bid 4S after your 3S, you will be in a very difficult position. DO you bid 5C or not? Do you bid 4N? Do you pass?

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

[whereagles]

Bah.. auctions after strong 2♣ suck anyway. Strong club is much better :o

[flytoox]

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

Say you have,

 

S: JX

H: JXX

D: KJTXX

C: XXX

 

You would bid 3D then 3S. Wouldnot you? How can pd make an intelligent decision if your hand can be so different?

[luis]

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

Say you have,

 

S: JX

H: JXX

D: KJTXX

C: XXX

 

You would bid 3D then 3S. Wouldnot you? How can pd make an intelligent decision if your hand can be so different?

No, I wouldn't. I would bid 2NT instead of 3d and if I bid 3d I would bid 3NT over 3h never 3s.

[fred]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

 

Example:

2c - 2d

2s - 3d

3h - 3s

3n - 4c

 

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.

You can't describe the hand better.

Disagree.

 

The bidding has to go exactly as you suggest (ie partner has make the cheapest bid at each of his next 2 opportunities) in order for you to have a chance "show all the features of your hand" at a convenient level.

 

If the auction continues in any other manner, you are going to have to get to the 5-level to convince partner that you have 3-card support and/or a singleton club.

 

It is unusual for a hand that could not make a positive response to withhold 3-card support for partner's major. As such, it is my opinion that even the auction that you describe should not be used to cater to these rare (and obscure) hands.

 

Couldn't the sequence you gave be completely natural? Maybe responder is 2-1-5-5 (and maybe you belong in clubs).

 

I have not thought this all the way through, but a good general principle seems to be that you should not withhold 3-card support in this auction unless you are willing to go to at least the 5-level.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

Who said: "Support with support, especially a major". Good rule. 2♣ is so space consuming that in the long run it will pay off to support opener's major at your first opportunity. 3♠ or 4♣, depends on agreement.

 

Roland

[han]

I think the 3D bidders have a problem if opener rebids 3S. Surely there is no possible way to show 3-card spade support now.

[luis]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

 

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

 

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

 

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

 

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

 

Example:

2c - 2d

2s - 3d

3h - 3s

3n - 4c

 

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.

You can't describe the hand better.

Disagree.

 

The bidding has to go exactly as you suggest (ie partner has make the cheapest bid at each of his next 2 opportunities) in order for you to have a chance "show all the features of your hand" at a convenient level.

 

If the auction continues in any other manner, you are going to have to get to the 5-level to convince partner that you have 3-card support and/or a singleton club.

 

It is unusual for a hand that could not make a positive response to withhold 3-card support for partner's major. As such, it is my opinion that even the auction that you describe should not be used to cater to these rare (and obscure) hands.

 

Couldn't the sequence you gave be completely natural? Maybe responder is 2-1-5-5 (and maybe you belong in clubs).

 

I have not thought this all the way through, but a good general principle seems to be that you should not withhold 3-card support in this auction unless you are willing to go to at least the 5-level.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I have my doubts about what is worst, not showing the 3 card support of spades or not showing the 6 card diamond suit. While thinking about it I will take your opinion as the way to go since you have more experience but I would like to run some simulations and talk with my pd about what he would prefer me to show.

 

Luis

[whereagles]

I think Fred's point is that the diamond suit needs a lot of help from pard to be of help in a slam.

[luis]

I think Fred's point is that the diamond suit needs a lot of help from pard to be of help in a slam.

Lot of help in diamonds? Nah...

Since pd opened 2♣ the chances of him having AK of diamonds are high so the diamond queen is starting to look like an important card but that card will only play a role if you show diamonds, if you don't show diamonds you will never be able to show the dQ and since you only have a king and a queen I think it's sensible to plot a plan where your queen will play.

 

Example:

AQxxx

Ax

AKx

AQx

 

In this hand over the 4c splinter bid opener can count with 11 tricks (5 spades, club ace, two club ruffs, 2 diamonds and the heart ace), if pd has the hK or the dQ you can win a slam, for a grand you will need more and probably won't have spade to find it. So the chances are that you will reach 6 spades while 7s or 7d are very cold.

(In the example over 3d opener can bid 4d and then the 4s cuebid showing the K will make reaching the grand slam quite easy)

 

I'm not saying that 3d is right because of this just that I have a lot of doubts. All the players that didn't bid 3♦ mentioned desire to show the diamond suit.

I think we have a very basic bidding problem here, after 2c-2d;2M with a 6331 hand with 3 card support for the major is it better to show the 6 card minor or the major? One approach should be better than the other. Volunteers to run a simulation and see what works bets?

[Walddk]

Example:

AQxxx

Ax

AKx

AQx

Does your partner expect a balanced hand when you rebid 2♠?

 

Roland

[luis]

Example:

AQxxx

Ax

AKx

AQx

Does your partner expect a balanced hand when you rebid 2♠?

 

Roland

Don't be fancy,

 

AQxxxx

A

AKx

AQx

 

Better now? Cmon!

[mike777]

Don't be fancy,

 

AQxxxx

A

AKx

AQx

 

 

 

 

2C=2D

2S=3S

4NT=5D

5NT=7D

7S

 

5D=ONE KEYCARD

2D=DENIES A LONG SUIT HEADED BY 2 OF TOP 3 HONORS BUT IS GAME FORCE.

3S=Stronger than 4S

5NT=Confirm all aces, partner show me kings or leap to 7 with some extra features that you have not shown. Yes, Playing this style you will bid some under 80% grandslams.

[luis]

Don't be fancy,

 

AQxxxx

A

AKx

AQx

 

 

 

 

2C=2D

2S=3S

4NT=5D

5NT=7D

7S

 

5D=ONE KEYCARD

2D=DENIES A LONG SUIT HEADED BY 2 OF TOP 3 HONORS BUT IS GAME FORCE.

3S=Stronger than 4S

5NT=Confirm all aces, partner show me kings or leap to 7 with some extra features that you have not shown. Yes, Playing this style you will bid some under 80% grandslams.

Fantastic bidding one player asks for kings and the other bids 7 without any king.

Superb.

[cherdano]

One thing I hope to have learned from the latest MSC in Bridge World (now that there is an official partnership between BBO and Bridge World, might as well drop some more advertising notes, hehe) is that after 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♠, bidding should continue naturally. (Rosenberg actually suggested that opener can bid 3NT to trigger cuebidding, but all other bids leave the auction in a natural mode.) So I have another hope, namely that I can still show a bit of a diamond suit after 3♠, maybe even a lot of them by bidding 4♦ and 5♦. (Yes I know the auction may well not work out like this.)

 

Arend

[Winstonm]

I actually don't remember what I bid on this one; however, I can assure one and all that whatever I bid was the perfect bid and I will defend myself to myself to the end. ;)

[flytoox]

I actually don't remember what I bid on this one; however, I can assure one and all that whatever I bid was the perfect bid and I will defend myself to myself to the end. :rolleyes:

lol.