Bidding question -- When 4NT not Blackwood

[epeeist]

Actually, my question is more specific, whether in a specific bidding sequence 4NT was Blackwood. Individual tournament scored at matchpoints, I think P and I were vulnerable. Agreed with p to use SAYC. No hands shown because I don't think it's relevant.

 

Me: 1 ♥

LHO: 2 ♣

P: 3NT

RHO: Pass

Me: 4 ♦

LHO: Pass

P: 4NT

All Pass

 

So I had shown opening points, LHO overcalled at the 2-level, and P bid 3NT.

 

I interpreted that as a "stop bidding" bid. However, because of my distribution (5-5 in ♥ and ♦) I bid 4 ♦. Thinking that gave P choice of 4♥ or 5♦. So when P bid 4NT, I assumed that was to play, not Blackwood.

 

Feel free to criticize anything else about my bidding :unsure: but my main concern is, was my assumption that 4NT wasn't Blackwood "wrong"?

[Elianna]

Feel free to criticize anything else about my bidding  :unsure:  but my main concern is, was my assumption that 4NT wasn't Blackwood "wrong"?

With a regular partner, it's all about having agreements (which I'm sure you already knew). With a partner in an individual, who knows.

 

I think that it might make sense to have 4NT non-blackwood, but I would treat 4♦ as a slam try, and 4NT as going along with that (so it's passable, but not really). Playing in an individual, I would tend to assume that whenever (ok, maybe almost whenever) partner bids 4NT, he means blackwood, or else is inviting to slam, and either way, answering will be ok.

 

If I were going to find fault with a bid OF YOURS, it might be the 4♦ bid, not the pass of 4NT, but if partner wants to go to slam, and doesn't care which, he could make it easier on you by bidding 5NT (pick a slam) or 5♣ (cue bid, and see what you cue), rather than taking the risk that you think that 4NT is to play. Even better than cueing 5♣, he could cue spades if he has it, but he may be afraid that you could take that to play (which it clearly SHOULDN'T be, he could have bid 2♠ which is forcing, but I don't know if pick up partners can be trusted to know that)

[HeartA]

Actually, my question is more specific, whether in a specific bidding sequence 4NT was Blackwood. Individual tournament scored at matchpoints, I think P and I were vulnerable. Agreed with p to use SAYC. No hands shown because I don't think it's relevant.

 

Me: 1 ♥

LHO: 2 ♣

P: 3NT

RHO: Pass

Me: 4 ♦

LHO: Pass

P: 4NT

All Pass

 

So I had shown opening points, LHO overcalled at the 2-level, and P bid 3NT.

 

I interpreted that as a "stop bidding" bid. However, because of my distribution (5-5 in ♥ and ♦) I bid 4 ♦. Thinking that gave P choice of 4♥ or 5♦. So when P bid 4NT, I assumed that was to play, not Blackwood.

 

Feel free to criticize anything else about my bidding :unsure: but my main concern is, was my assumption that 4NT wasn't Blackwood "wrong"?

Since you didn't want to play 3NT, I would think 4NT as blackwood (or RKC for ♦).

[Stephen Tu]

I think it's absolutely clearcut that 4NT should be natural. How else are you supposed to play it if you have a misfit hand? It can very well be the last making contract. If you have a hand improved to slam invitational you have a ton of other unambiguous slam tries available.

 

My rule in my partnerships is that if 4nt sounds like it could be natural, it is. Also, if your previous bid was 3nt to play, 4nt is also to play, rejecting partner's try. It makes very little sense to have 4nt as RKC. 3nt is bid on non-slammish hands often with wasted values in the opps suit. Can you really construct a balanced hand that suddenly is able to ask aces & count tricks accurately? Even if your hand has improved to slammish, it's really doubtful that taking captaincy with blackwood would be the best course of action even if it were available.

[mike777]

good grief

4d must be slam force or why bother bidding it....

 

Partner leaped to 3nt saying no slam interest yet you bid 4d why bother...some super expert bid?..you can have junky 11 hcp and p bid 3nt..so just what is your super 4d bid?

[Walddk]

I agree that 4♦ should be slammy, but I also think that 4NT is the only way to decline; in other words: natural.

 

If responder is interested, he will bid 4♥ natural, or 4♠, cue bid agreeing diamonds. Final (unlikely) option is 5♦.

 

Roland

[cherdano]

Let me agree that 4NT should be natural. However, in an individual I would bet 10:1 that my CHO will think it is either Blackwood, or RKCB for diamonds, or RKCB for hearts (and will think I am a complete beginner if I don't know which).

 

Arend

[helene_t]

3NT must be a very descriptive bid, at least in terms of distribution, since there're plenty of other options available after the overcall. Partner is probably 3244. This means that opener is captain. So 4NT is not Blackwood. Partner must sign-off in 4♥ or 5♦, or cooperate with a cuebid of 4♠ or 5♣.

 

I would assume 4NT to be semi-positive. You can pass it if you want (you're captain).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I agree with your partner.

 

4D is a move toward slam and should show 5-5.

 

From the bidding it is clear, that responder has a

diamond fit

 

- he did not support hearts, i.e. he holds at most 2

cards in hearts

- he did not make a neg. dbl., i.e. he holds at most

3 cards in spades (...)

 

Unless we give responder 5-6 clubs, he will have at least

3 diamonds most of the time, i.e. a fit.

 

Now it makes sense, to play 4NT as natural here,

espescially playing MP's, but playing IMP's, I

would say Blackwood makes more sense, at least for

me.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

4NT is a sing off. after a 4m reopening you are jsut forced to use a major cuebid if you wanna use blackwood.

[P_Marlowe]

4NT is a sing off. after a 4m reopening you are jsut forced to use a major cuebid if you wanna use blackwood.

Hi,

 

great.

 

4H may or may not be understood, as suggestion to play

the contract, and the other free bid below is 4S, opps ....

 

Does 4S shows or deny a Club control?

Because now, you require, that partner has to bid 4NT without

the knowledge, that there exist at least 2nd round controll in

every suit.

 

Of course, asking the opponents for an intervention, will do the

job, if they are nice.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[flytoox]

Actually, my question is more specific, whether in a specific bidding sequence 4NT was Blackwood. Individual tournament scored at matchpoints, I think P and I were vulnerable. Agreed with p to use SAYC. No hands shown because I don't think it's relevant.

 

Me: 1 ♥

LHO: 2 ♣

P: 3NT

RHO: Pass

Me: 4 ♦

LHO: Pass

P: 4NT

All Pass

 

So I had shown opening points, LHO overcalled at the 2-level, and P bid 3NT.

 

I interpreted that as a "stop bidding" bid. However, because of my distribution (5-5 in ♥ and ♦) I bid 4 ♦. Thinking that gave P choice of 4♥ or 5♦. So when P bid 4NT, I assumed that was to play, not Blackwood.

 

Feel free to criticize anything else about my bidding  :unsure:  but my main concern is, was my assumption that 4NT wasn't Blackwood "wrong"?

Since you didn't want to play 3NT, I would think 4NT as blackwood (or RKC for ♦).

Not necessary. Pd says he want to play 3n. But you says pd, we might have a slam, so you bid 4D. But pd says again, I really didnot want to play a suit contract and I dont think there is a slam, let's play 4N.

 

I would treat 4N as natural, if he has diamond fit, he can always do sth else, cue spade, or cue 5c. I think 4H should show doubleton and suggest to play 5-2 fit. Without spade or club control, he should simply raise to 5D.

[Echognome]

I'm also in the 4NT is a sign-off camp. People are asking what partner does with yadda yadda, but what does partner do if he simply wants to play in NT? Your 4♦ is a slam *try* since 3NT can be made on lots of different hands. If the 4♦ doesn't improve his hand, then does he have to play in hearts or diamonds only? Would be quite silly if he did.

[inquiry]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but in an individual, with an "unknown" partner (ignore their self-rating) you should treat all your partners 4NT bid as "blackwood". This isn't the right "bridge answer", but it is the right practical answer. This discussion has come up multiple times, and the problem is always the fellow across from you and HIS UNDERSTANDING of the game. If he is an unknown item, here is the rule (actually taken from Steve) to live by....http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=11068

 

So I would treat this 4NT as blackwood with unknown partner. Yes, I know that 4NT here SHOULD BE natural, no desire to try for more, and a way to limit responders hand. Having said that, individuals are a different kind of bridge.

 

I will disagree with Roland here, however, on how the auction SHOULD REALLY go. On this auction

 

1H - (2C) - 3NT - (P)

4D - (P) - ?

 

This is what I play...

 

4H = simple preference (or even false preference preferring 3NT/4NT)

5D = ok, I picked a contract

4NT = spade cue-bid

4S = RKCB, two suit agreement (6 keycards)

5C = on way to 5D, but general if you are serious, I will co-operate further = stronger than 5D/ weaker than 4S.

 

I am willing to modify and use 4NT as to play rather than going through a likely false preference of 4H to express my displeasure iwth partner pulling my 3NT

[mike777]

I am playing in an Indi matchpoint game with unknown partner for 2 hands?

Why has partner bid 4D?

I assume there are only winning 2 places to play this hand 3nt or slam.

Why did partner not just pass 3nt or jump to 6d?

 

My guess is partner has bid 4d to have me make some confusing rebid and place blame on me, good grief Charlie Brown.

[Echognome]

I am playing in an Indi matchpoint game with unknown partner for 2 hands?

Why has partner bid 4D?

I assume there are only winning 2 places to play this hand 3nt or slam.

Why did partner not just pass 3nt or jump to 6d?

 

My guess is partner has bid 4d to have me make some confusing rebid and place blame on me, good grief Charlie Brown.

Don't agree. You can be bidding 3NT with a strong balanced hand or with a good diamond suit and some stoppers in the unbid suit. How can partner know when 3NT has such a wide range and shape?

 

I take Ben's point about an individual, but that IMO is like saying "I'm not going to ever worry about UI because partner will know how I take it when I bid a new suit." Better yet to agree "4NT is ALWAYS blackwood" than do that.

[mike777]

1)If I had a great hand or great suit I do not bid 3nt.

2)This is matchpoints we are not playing 5d ever.....

3) After I bid 3nt our only choices are....3nt or slam. Bidding 4d is only going to confuse the issue.

4) Trying to thread the needle and bid with science in an indi mp game, is too painful, must go :rolleyes:

[Walddk]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but in an individual, with an "unknown" partner (ignore their self-rating) you should treat all your partners 4NT bid as "blackwood". This isn't the right "bridge answer", but it is the right practical answer.

 

<snip>

 

I will disagree with Roland here, however, on how the auction SHOULD REALLY go. On this auction

 

1H - (2C) - 3NT - (P)

4D - (P) - ?

 

This is what I play...

 

4H = simple preference (or even false preference preferring 3NT/4NT)

5D = ok, I picked a contract

4NT = spade cue-bid

4S = RKCB, two suit agreement (6 keycards)

5C = on way to 5D, but general if you are serious, I will co-operate further = stronger than 5D/ weaker than 4S.

 

I am willing to modify and use 4NT as to play rather than going through a likely false preference of 4H to express my displeasure iwth partner pulling my 3NT

Sounds like a contradiction to me, Ben. On one hand you want to play 4NT as Blackwood in an individual, on the other hand you want to play your sophisticated methods (in the same tourney I presume).

 

Nothing wrong with what you suggest, but do you really think that your random partner in an individual will understand a word of what you are saying?

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Sounds like a contradiction to me, Ben. On one hand you want to play 4NT as Blackwood in an individual, on the other hand you want to play your sophisticated methods (in the same tourney I presume).

 

Nothing wrong with what you suggest, but do you really think that your random partner in an individual will understand a word of what you are saying?

Two issues... contridiction? No. The way I would WANT to play it (the convoluted way) would never enter my mind in an individual. 4NT would be blackwood, plain and simple. Why? Because the masses bid that way. There is no contridiction, I don't want it both ways. It is what it is.

 

The method I gave, with 4NT being a spade cue-bid, and 4S being blackwood is based upon experience with KAntar RKB with minor suit agreement. I don't assume any individual partner will play kantar RKB anyway (and to use RKB in an indivdual unless your parnter or you have 1430 or 3014 on your profile is fraught wtith danger... write that on NOW if y ou play individuals. And where possible, say "my profile partner" when you sit down.

 

ben

[Stephen Tu]

I agree in an individual with a non-expert CHO, 4nt is usually intended as blackwood. The thing is, that if 3nt was a reasonable place to play, 4nt is also likely to be reasonable, even if it was intended as blackwood. I think your MP expectation is higher from passing than by responding. If 4nt was not intended as blackwood, responding as such usually propels you to a no play slam & a bad score. If it was intended as blackwood, passing still tends to beat or tie all non-slam bidders, since you are in the highest scoring game contract, and is a huge win if slam goes down. You only get a poor score if the bulk of the field is bidding & making slam, which will be rare in a individual on a board where evidently it's not clearcut whether to continue. Usually 4nt will be average minus at worst.

[epeeist]

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

Though I would tend to agree with steve's rule referred to by inquiry in respect of always (except when over NT bid by partner) treating 4NT as blackwood, all absolute rules admit of exception (or should that be, almost all absolute rules admit of exception? :rolleyes: ).

 

In this case I thought -- rightly or wrongly -- that given 3NT had been a signoff bid (that's what I thought, anyway), we were unlikely to have slam (based on my own hand). And if as some suggest here my 4♦ bid had suggested slam interest to partner, then I had made a mistake from which the best recovery was to pass 4NT.

[pclayton]

I'm not sure that 4D should be slammish. Are you required to pass 3N on a hand like: Ax, KQxxx, Qxxxxx, void?

 

Notwithstanding that, 4N is still a signoff.Pard is advertising some sort of AKx, xx, Kxx, KTxxx although the universe of these hands is small, since pard can't find a penalty pass of 2C, a diamond raise, or a delayed heart preference. Still I'd rather not change the sensible meaning of 4N in these auctions.

[flytoox]

I'm not sure that 4D should be slammish. Are you required to pass 3N on a hand like: Ax, KQxxx, Qxxxxx, void?

 

Notwithstanding that, 4N is still a signoff.Pard is advertising some sort of AKx, xx, Kxx, KTxxx although the universe of these hands is small, since pard can't find a penalty pass of 2C, a diamond raise, or a delayed heart preference. Still I'd rather not change the sensible meaning of 4N in these auctions.

I think 4D has to show slam interest. Pd says he wants to play 3N. Without very clear reason you really should not bid over 3N.

[Free]

I'm with Ben. In an individual, any 4NT bid is blackwood since many players don't even know other meanings of the bid!

 

There are 2 ways to signoff imo:

- 4NT = signoff and 4♠ is cue

- 4NT = blackwood and 4♠ is signoff (can't be natural anyway)

 

But in indi's, don't make it too difficult, just interpret 4NT as blackwood since 95% of the time it's meant that way. It's a generally known convention which gets abused even more in individual tourneys, just accept this fact...