Stealing a card... in which major ?

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

assume you have, 1st seat, all vuln, IMPS, the following hand or similar:

 

AQT9-AQT9-xxx-xx

 

Whatever range of NT opener, you dislike opening 1m and 1NT (because of 2 suits unstopped) and prefer to treat it as unbalanced, stealing a card in one major.

 

Over 1M, you play:

- 2/1 absolute GF;

- over 1H opener, kaplan inversion:

.... -1S forcing, denies 5+ spads, may include 3 card limit raise (1NT by opener would show 4 spades)

.... -1NT = 5+ spades, may still have a limit raise with 3 cards

- over 1S opener. 1NT forcing (includes 3 card limit raises);

- 2M = constructive raise (9 losers), usually 3 cards;

- 2NT = inv+ 4 card raises

- fitshowing jumps

- concealed splinters (3S over 1H, 3NT over 1S)

- 3M/4M/5M = preemptive

- after pard's 2/1, any "normal" hand (no features, no distributional reverse, no power reverse) has to rebid the major as a catchall;

 

 

The question is: in view of potential difficult rebid, from which major do you prefer to steal a card ?

Would it be different if red vs white ?

Would it be different at Matchpoints ?

Would it be different if not playing Kaplan inversion (e.g. opening 1H may give problems as for the flannery-type hands)?

 

Thanks all!! :-)

[Gerben42]

Whatever range of NT opener, you dislike opening 1m and 1NT (because of 2 suits unstopped) and prefer to treat it as unbalanced, stealing a card in one major.

 

No I don't! All this "suits stopped" when opening 1NT is total nonsense in my view. Also opening 1♣ (or 1♦ if you are still playing that both minors show 3+ instead of diamonds showing 4 and clubs can be 2) is not a statement "I want to play that suit" but more "i have an opening bid lets find a contract".

 

But if you must then bid 1♥ because then 4-4 fit in the major you didn't bid is easier to find. But still I think you're digging a hole for yourself here to fall into.

[whereagles]

Toss a coin.. lol ;)

 

Actually. I prefer to lie about spades.

[Chamaco]

No I don't! All this "suits stopped" when opening 1NT is total nonsense in my view.

The rule of thumb I follow (which I did not invent by the way) is:

when you have 2 suits unstopped (hence values concentrated in 2 suits), try to find an alternative bid to NT and treat the hand as unbalanced.

When it's unbalanced, bid the suits where your values are.

 

 

I like this rule of thumb, sometimes it fails, just like any guideline (even the 26 hcp = bid game fails, after all), many times it just works fine.

 

Finally, there are plenty of good players that "steal" a card for overcalling a 4 card major made of HHTx: I cannot see why, in borderline, specific cases like this one, one cannot apply the same principle ("bid where you strength is").

[Finch]

Hi all,

assume you have, 1st seat, all vuln, IMPS, the following hand or similar:

 

AQT9-AQT9-xxx-xx

 

Whatever range of NT opener, you dislike opening 1m and 1NT (because of 2 suits unstopped) and prefer to treat it as unbalanced, stealing a card in one major.

If you won't let me open 1m or 1NT, I shall pass and come back in with a take-out double (or possibly a 1S overcall) to show the majors next round.

 

If the opponents bid the majors I don't think I've lost out much.

[Chamaco]

 

If you won't let me open 1m or 1NT, I shall pass and come back in with a take-out double (or possibly a 1S overcall) to show the majors next round.

 

If the opponents bid the majors I don't think I've lost out much.

 

Question 1

Ok, so what would you bid with:

 

AKT9-AKT9-xxx-xx,

 

assuming you do not open 1m NOR 1NT ?

 

Question 2

 

If one can steal a card for an overcall, overcalling good 4 bagger even if it is supposed to show 5, why would you not do it for an opening (only for specific hands that might have some reasons to do so) ?

 

I suppose that passing then overcalling 1S shows a weaker hand than AQTx-AQTx-xxx-xx ?

[whereagles]

Mauro, I think most people will agree that treating the hand as 'balanced' is less of a distortion than lying about major-suit length. And they are probably right too ;)

[Chamaco]

Mauro, I think most people will agree that treating the hand as 'balanced' is less of a distortion than lying about major-suit length. And they are probably right too :)

Well, I have read in Mike Lawrence and Terence Reese's books that, under the proper conditions, it is perfectly legitimate to open a 4 card major even haveing agreed to play 5cM.

 

One of the "proper conditions" is "balanced but with 2 suits unstopped" that usually, if possible, are better distorted by bidding where your values are rather than your shape.

 

Many examples can be found also in "Matchpoints" by Kit Woolsey, where he specifically says that opening 1m with Jxx or Qxx or xxx when you have a great 4 card major suit is not a good start. Bid where your values are, I am sure that even those who disagrees to open 1M here have stolen a card before.

 

I just cannot understand why it is considered resonable overcalling (assumed 5-card length) 1M with 4 great card , and NOT opening (assumed 5cM opening) with 4 great cards . The situation is the same.

 

 

I do not expect everyone to agree on this of course (after all, anytime one makes a distortion of the hand, there will be someone else who disagrees on some dirtortions, but that will agree with other distortions).

 

So, while I acknowledge some people wil disagree, I still think that it is a plausible thing to do :-)

 

Therefore, if it's plausible, the question was simply:

 

when you have a 44(32) with 44 in the majors and equivalent strength of the majors, ONCE YOU HAVE DECIDED TO BID A MAJOR RATHER THAN TREATING IT AS BALANCED (maybe with a gun pointing at your head ;) ), which major will you open (given the system conditions listed above) ?

[cherdano]

I wouldn't open this 1M unless in 3rd hand, but to answer your question:

 

Given your system, I seem to have the option of either opening 1♥ rebidding 1NT (if that does not lie about my strength) over 1♠, or opening 1♠ rebidding 2♥ over the likely 1NT. Since the point of opening 1M seems to be to show where your strength lies, opening 1♠ seems to be more consistent.

But this is a bit like a vegetarian giving advice between choosing beef and lamb...

 

Arend

[Fluffy]

I have never opened this ones as 1M, but I overcall often 4 card majors when I don't have shortness in the opening suit.

 

So if I had to open I would do it with 1♠, because it gives me an easy rebid of 2♥ if partner makes a 2/1.

 

Overcalling its different, I would normally use michael's, but maybe I don't like the 4-4 and wanna overcall just 1 of them. Then I would pick 1♥ because it lets my partner bid 1♠.

[joker_gib]

I don't lie when I have a bid available. So, even with all concentrated in majors I open or I rebid 1NT.

 

I don't know if it is right or wrong but it shows HCP and shape to partner.

 

If, after that, I'm in 3NT my partner will bring some HCP and they probably will be in minor.

 

It is impossible to say that the 3NT contract will be inferior to a 4M contract in a moysian !

 

Alain

[vang]

I just cannot understand why it is considered resonable overcalling (assumed 5-card length) 1M with 4 great card , and  NOT opening (assumed 5cM opening) with 4 great cards . The situation is the same.

 

no, it's not the same. when you open, you have better chances to win the bidding, to play the final contract, to describe your hand. when you overcall, you want to say fast what you have because the chances are that you won't be able to fully describe your hand values etc.

[helene_t]

I just cannot understand why it is considered resonable overcalling (assumed 5-card length) 1M with 4 great card , and NOT opening (assumed 5cM opening) with 4 great cards . The situation is the same.

I think there's a difference.

 

When overcalling, lead-directing is quite important. When opening, showing excact major suit length, ballanced hand and accurate HCP count is everything since it's about finding the right game.

 

Besides, short/nebolous minor suit opening and/or weak 1NT are available when opening, not when overcalling. Btw, I rarely overcall on a four-card, only when there's no alternative.

 

If you can open this hand 1NT, it's great in first seat. Less great in second seat but if I had serious problems with this I wouldn't be playing a weak 1NT in second seat.

 

If you can open this hand in a minor suit, it's ok. Well, I don't like it, but that's the price one pays for playing 5-card majors with strong 1NT.

[Chamaco]

If you can open this hand 1NT, it's great in first seat. Less great in second seat but if I had serious problems with this I wouldn't be playing a weak 1NT in second seat.

 

I hate opening weak NT (and even strong NT for what it matters :lol: ) with both majors, especially at MP, because of the high likelihood of missing a major suit fit.

 

Even more so if I have 2 suits unstopped, a traditional bad flaw for bidding NT even with balanced hand.

 

The point is: there are balanced hands which are suit oriented and not NT oriented.

[Chamaco]

I just cannot understand why it is considered resonable overcalling (assumed 5-card length) 1M with 4 great card , and  NOT opening (assumed 5cM opening) with 4 great cards . The situation is the same.

 

no, it's not the same. when you open, you have better chances to win the bidding, to play the final contract, to describe your hand. when you overcall, you want to say fast what you have because the chances are that you won't be able to fully describe your hand values etc.

This concept was certainly true in the old days, when opening was always constructive.

 

But nowadays, when deciding how and if to open, the concept of opening is becoming closer and closer to an "anticipated overcall":

 

a. IN-QUICK/OUt- Quick: many people open light, often in the 9-10 range, if shapely

 

b. a lot of emphasis on lead direction, to anticipate the potentially contested auction: nowadays almost every auction is contested, so it is of paramount importance to be able to tell pard

....1. in which suit your strength is

....2. potential lead direction if opps buy the hand.

 

c. because opening are becoming lighter and lighter, when we overcalls we have a higher likelihood than 20 years ago that the hand will belong to us (because so often opener is light)

 

So basically, quite often the choices involving opening and overcalling are quite similar.

Probably I was exaggerating when saying that the situation is EXACTLY the same, but in modern days, even if not exactly the same, it is certainly very similar.

[Elianna]

AQT9-AQT9-xxx-xx

 

Whatever range of NT opener, you dislike opening 1m and 1NT (because of 2 suits unstopped) and prefer to treat it as unbalanced, stealing a card in one major.

 

Over 1M, you play:

- 2/1 absolute GF;

- over 1H opener, kaplan inversion:

.... -1S forcing, denies 5+ spads, may include 3 card limit raise

.... -1NT = 5+ spades, may still have a limit raise with 3 cards

- over 1S opener. 1NT forcing (includes 3 card limit raises);

- 2M = constructive raise (9 losers), usually 3 cards;

- 2NT = inv+ 4 card raises

- fitshowing jumps

- concealed splinters (3S over 1H, 3NT over 1S)

- 3M/4M/5M = preemptive

- after pard's 2/1, any "normal" hand (no features, no distributional reverse, no power reverse) has to rebid the major as a catchall;

 

 

The question is: in view of potential difficult rebid, from which major do you prefer to steal a card ?

Would it be different if red vs white ?

Would it be different at Matchpoints ?

Would it be different if not playing Kaplan inversion (e.g. opening 1H may give problems as for the flannery-type hands)?

When playing 2/1 I would REFUSE to open this hand one of a major. The reason: I am afraid to hear the auction (for example, if I opened 1♠):

1♠ - 1NT;

2♥ - 2♠

 

the 2♠ is usually on a 2-card suit. Even with 3♥'s, I've seen partners correct to 2♠. Why would I want to play in my 4-2 fit? Or should I bid 2NT over 2♠? This seems rather bad: partner could have three spades and a very weak hand (and was trying to curtail interference, or me from bidding on). And why am I willing to NOW play 1NT?

 

Opening 1♥ with this is even worse. What do I do over the expected auction

1♥-1♠; (or 1♥-1NT not playing Kaplan inversion?). I guess I bid 1NT (or pass the forcing NT if not playing KI), but that does not seem to gain me anything, if I was originally reluctant to bid NT, and so this seems not only rather unsatisfactory, but also seems to create a rebid problem where none existed.

 

I still don't understand the problem with opening 1m or 1NT.

[hrothgar]

Let me echo MANY other comments...

 

I would happily open this hand with 1♦ playing 5 card majors and strong NT

 

I would happily open this hand with 1NT playing 5 card majors and weak NT (For what its worth, the "issue" with a weak NT opening on this hand has nothing to do with 2 suits being wide open, but rather with the very likely chance that you will miss a 4-4 fit in a major)

 

Were I to open this hand with 1M, I would chose to open 1♥, intending to treat this as a 5-3-3-2. However, this is primarily because I find the very notion of a 1M opening digusting and want the auction to die a quick and dirty death.... If were actually convinced that 1M is the right course of action I'd open 1♠, intending to rebid 2♥.

[whereagles]

Well, I have read in Mike Lawrence and Terence Reese's books that, under the proper conditions, it is perfectly legitimate to open a 4 card major even haveing agreed to play 5cM.

 

I just cannot understand why it is considered resonable overcalling (assumed 5-card length) 1M with 4 great card , and NOT opening (assumed 5cM opening) with 4 great cards . The situation is the same.

1. When I play 5-card majors I also have little problems in opening on a 4-card suit, though my exceptions are more geared towards 4441s.

 

2. The point of overcalling on a 4-card as opposed to opening is that the strategy is different. In overcalls you're in the defensive side, and you want to show a good lead and to disrupt opponent's bidding. It is less important to show a precise shape than to butt-in to show a lead or mess up stuff.

 

But I agree, some people won't do it because of prejudice.

[luke warm]

I hate opening weak NT (and even strong NT for what it matters :unsure: ) with both majors, especially at MP, because of the high likelihood of missing a major suit fit.

funny how people can differ on this... i love opening 1nt every chance i get, majors or no majors

[the hog]

Plaing a 12-14 NT I have no problems at all opening this 1NT; playing a strong NT I have no problems opening this hand 1D. Opening 1M is a mistake imo, unless you are in third seat.

[Fluffy]

Differencec between opening and overcalling is you have a double avaible, ,but when the structure doesn't fit the double you might have to overcall a 4 major.

 

When opening you can bid 3 card minors wich act as some kind of stayman :unsure:.

[Gerben42]

But you only want to vagueify one of your minors so I play 5-cards majors, 1♦ promises four and 1♣ is basically asking for 4-card majors.

 

This is the basic structure of almost all of the systems played by the Estoril medal candidates that don't play an artificial system (like Precision or Swedish Club), for example:

 

* Everyone in Poland and surrounding countries (and stop calling Polish Club artificial!)

* Fantoni - Nunes (forcing 1-level bids, 5542)

* Lauria - Versace and Bocchi - Duboin (natural with 5542)

* Team Orange (5542 but 1C is forcing for some, others similar to PC)

[Finch]

Obviously "medal candidates" is subjective... but none of the English team play that.

 

Townsend/Gold (who just got a medal in the EBL Pairs) play strong NT, 4 card majors (5CM if 18-19)

 

Price/Simpson play strong & fours.

 

Justin/Jason play 14-16 and fours.

[flytoox]

Obviously "medal candidates" is subjective

I agree with this and want to add that in this sense China is definitely a "candidate".:rolleyes:

[pclayton]

Mauro, I think this is a sound idea. I'm sorry you getting a lot of flack. Certainly this example shows the gap between 'system' and 'judgement'.

 

This hand screams to play in a suit contract - even a 4-r rather than NT.

 

Using your guidelines it is a clear 1H opening. Over the KI 1S response rebid 1N. Unless you are playing a semi forcing NT response, opening 1S will very likely lead to a 4-2 fit.

 

I don't play KI so I would just open 1C or 1N.