Ham Sandwich

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=w&v=e&s=s42hkj873d8ckq983]133|100|Auction:

W N E S

1D P 1S ?

 

I think this is all Marty Bergen's fault, LoL. Seems as though the whole world bids 1N here which leads IMO to double dummy declarer play by the opponents more often than it produces a plus for our side.

Therefore, long ago I decided that these 2-suited bids have to be only 1 of 2 hands: extremely sacrifice oriented or pretty darn good - the "tweener's" only caused grief.

On this same theme, I'm considering the following and would appreciate opinions: Replacing Sandwich NT with the meaning of "natural" overcall in responder's suit. That would leave 2 of opener's minor as natural, 1N as natural holding responder's suit, 2 of responder's suit as Michael's, and double as a less shapely takeout.

 

Any thoughts on this or similar subjects concerning two-suited bidding?[/hv]

[inquiry]

This is interesting. Misho and I played (come back misho), that after 1x-p-1y-? both 2x and 2y were natural, 1NT was shapely takeout (aka michaels) but some stuff, 2NT really shaply takeout and sacrafice oriented, and dbl as general takeout.

 

The ability to bid their suits naturally has helped on a few hands but really is fairly rare occurance that you have a good enough suit. The one notrump as responder suit is interesting.

[Double !]

[hv=d=w&v=e&s=s42hkj873d8ckq983]133|100|Auction:

W N E S

1D P 1S ?

 

I think this is all Marty Bergen's fault, LoL. Seems as though the whole world bids 1N here which leads IMO to double dummy declarer play by the opponents more often than it produces a plus for our side.

Therefore, long ago I decided that these 2-suited bids have to be only 1 of 2 hands: extremely sacrifice oriented or pretty darn good - the "tweener's" only caused grief.

On this same theme, I'm considering the following and would appreciate opinions: Replacing Sandwich NT with the meaning of "natural" overcall in responder's suit. That would leave 2 of opener's minor as natural, 1N as natural holding responder's suit, 2 of responder's suit as Michael's, and double as a less shapely takeout.

 

Any thoughts on this or similar subjects concerning two-suited bidding?[/hv]

I play sandwich NT (hold the mayo, please) and am not thrilled with it. I don't agree with discarding a natural meaning of 1NT in the sandwich position on the position that it's a very dangerous bid; there are some hands that one needs to get off one's chest asap. I see merit in playing 2 of either opps suits as being natural, especially the 1M to your right. So the issue is to differentiate between a shapely 2-suiter and a good hand takeout dbl. Personally, I play the cue of lho's minor, especially if it's diamonds, as the 2-suiter, but to each his/her own.

 

And, oh, btw, does your sandwich show 4M-5+m, 5-5, or have you agreed?

[Free]

Imo, sandwich NT should only show 4-4 or longer. This makes the declarer play NOT double dummy at all... Don't really see the need in a natural 1NT overcall: it seldom comes up, and if it comes up you get hammered at least half of the time (but this actually depends on you opponent's system).

 

Question is what you do with the 2 available cuebids :)

[mikeh]

In today's bridge environment, giving up the strong, natural 1N is, in my view, a big mistake at imps. Have you seen what people open and respond on these days? It is not uncommon for your side to have 24-25 hcp and still hear 1x p 1y ? your bid, especially when you are red and they are white. Doubling doesn't help much, since it overloads the double, while confusing partner (or handcuffing him when he cannot bid due to having to cater to there being no fit).

 

So my scheme is 1N natural.

 

For much the same reason, a cue of rho's suit has to be natural: again, have you seen what people bid on these days?

 

Many top players play both cues as natural, but then you have the problem you fear. So I use a cue of opener as a distributonal takeout while a double is a decent hand (opening values or close) takeout, classically with 4=4 in the unbids, but you cannot always be perfect:)

 

As for mps: frequency of gain rather than size of gain might justify playing 1N as weak takeout, cue of opener as michaels and double as good takeout, but you need a natural cue of rho even more so than at imps, and I would lower the hcp requirements for it, thus increasing the frequency of use. Thus after 1x p 1♠, not vul, I'd bid 2♠ with KJ108xx Kxx xx xx at mps. but not at imps, where I'd promise a near-opener and a slightly better suit.

[Double !]

In today's bridge environment, giving up the strong, natural 1N is, in my view, a big mistake at imps. Have you seen what people open and respond on these days? It is not uncommon for your side to have 24-25 hcp and still hear 1x p 1y ? your bid, especially when you are red and they are white. Doubling doesn't help much, since it overloads the double, while confusing partner (or handcuffing him when he cannot bid due to having to cater to there being no fit).

 

So my scheme is 1N natural.

 

For much the same reason, a cue of rho's suit has to be natural: again, have you seen what people bid on these days?

 

Many top players play both cues as natural, but then you have the problem you fear. So I use a cue of opener as a distributonal takeout while a double is a decent hand (opening values or close) takeout, classically with 4=4 in the unbids, but you cannot always be perfect:)

 

As for mps: frequency of gain rather than size of gain might justify playing 1N as weak takeout, cue of opener as michaels and double as good takeout, but you need a natural cue of rho even more so than at imps, and I would lower the hcp requirements for it, thus increasing the frequency of use. Thus after 1x p 1♠, not vul, I'd bid 2♠ with KJ108xx Kxx xx xx at mps. but not at imps, where I'd promise a near-opener and a slightly better suit.

I concur.

 

At some point in the auction one needs to be able to tell partner : "Hey, I have the good hand over here!" I have the points, hopefully you have the shape, let us not get stolen blind!

[Winstonm]

Of course, one of the side benefits to playing 1N as the equivalent of a 2-level overcall in RHO's suit is that partner can always convert to 1N with a pass.

 

I've thought of other ideas here, mostly trying to show good hands - one I kind of liked but partner didn't was:

 

2 of opener's suit=4/5 unbids

2 of responder's suit=5/4 unbids

Double=4/4 unbids

1N=5/5 or 6/5 unbids

 

Seems there is a lot of room for improvements in the auction no matter what one decides to do.

 

WinstonM

[Gerben42]

There is one point I'd like to make here

 

1x p 1y is forcing. If you don't bid you'll get another turn. If they really bid on nothing you will get another chance because they're not going to get very far. The sandwich 1NT is for hands that fear that the opps are going to bid their fit and then next round it will be unsafe to get in again.

 

On the given hand and vuln. I bid 2NT though.

My agreements are as inquiry's.

[cherdano]

There is one point I'd like to make here

 

1x p 1y is forcing. If you don't bid you'll get another turn. If they really bid on nothing you will get another chance because they're not going to get very far. The sandwich 1NT is for hands that fear that the opps are going to bid their fit and then next round it will be unsafe to get in again.

I don't see how you can get in later if you have a natural 1NT overcall. If the bidding goes 1x - 1y - 1NT and 2 passes to you, what do you want to bid? What do you want to do after 1x - 1y - 2y? Any action at that point is waaay more dangerous than a direct 1NT. Unless you are very lucky and partner can prebalance, you will have to pass this out.

 

I think if you pass (or are forced to pass by agreements) with a natural 1NT overcall, then that is a gamble on that you have no game on (or more precisely, that overcalling 1NT will conceding a penalty more often than getting to a good game).

 

Arend

[42]

we play after 1x pass 1y:

- dbl = 54 in the other suits, the economical suit is longer (here 5 ♣s and 4 ♥s)

- 1NT = 45, economical suit is shorter (surprise :lol: -> 4 ♣s, 5 ♥s)

- 2x = 55

- 2y = natural, (6 cards are fine)

 

So in this example we would bid 2♦.

 

Caren

[Finch]

I keep my life simple.

In my most regular partnership I play

 

Double = take-out, usually has fair values

All suit bids = natural

1NT = natural, strong

2NT = distributional two-suiter

 

In my second most regular partnership we play the cue of opener's suit as a less aggressive 5-5.

 

Being able to show a good hand with RHO's suit is very useful. You can pass and protect to compete the partial with a weaker hand with length.

 

I only play sandwich NT by a passed hand.

[civill]

I keep my life simple.

In my most regular partnership I play

 

Double = take-out, usually has fair values

All suit bids = natural

1NT = natural, strong

2NT = distributional two-suiter

Natural understandings.

[Gerben42]

Well since I don't play a strong 1NT overcall in any situation I guess the same but 1NT as 2-suited takeout also counts as natural then. (1x p p 1NT is natural, but doesn't count as a strong overcall). So in that sense I play natural too.

[Finch]

In my second most regular partnership we play the cue of opener's suit as a less aggressive 5-5.

At least, we do now.

 

There was a long period (years) in which I played it as natural, and he played it as 5-5 in the unbid suits.

 

This period ended a couple of months ago after we went for 1100 in a 3-2 fit.

[keylime]

I play Sandwich NT <hold the mustard, extra relish please> with any 4-4 and up.

[pigpenz]

so do I and I am always wiping the mayo off of me, it amazing how many people have no idea what it is ;)

[Wackojack]

I have been introduced to after 1x-p-1y-? or 1x-p-2y (x>y):

 

 

1. Cue of HR = 6HR + 4LR of the unbid suits

2. Cue of LR = 6LR + 4HR of the unbid suits

3. NT = 55 in the unbid suits

4. Double = 4/5 or 4/4 of the unbid suits

 

May make it easier for declarer if they buy the contract but you find 4/4 fits.

 

Like wise you could jump in opps suit to show 6/5

[1eyedjack]

With reg p I tend to play methods set out by Amsbury/Payne in their (rather dated by now) book TNT and Competitive Bidding:

 

X = 3 suited short in opener

1N = 3 suited short in responder

Cues and 2N = 2 suited, progressively more shapely the more space consumed, but starting at 4-4 if both can be bid at 2 level (ie 1C opened) or if brave (ie nonvul v vul).

 

With a single suiter in oppo's suit you have to pass first and bid it later. If the suit is of sufficient quality that it is worth the risk, there is a fair chance that you will still be within the danger zone at next opportunity. It doesn't always work out, I know. There is always a price to pay.

 

This method is quite useful after opponents have opened with what might be a prepared minor. Also, if responder has no more than 4 cards in his response suit that may yet be a fit for you, and it is nice to be able to try for it.

 

Showing a 3-suiter short in responder becomes redundant after a 1H opener, especially if opener promises 5, as you can never realistically want to declare in that suit, so after 1H opener the 2-suiters start at 1N.

 

As with any bidding, it does give away a lot of info to declarer if you end up defending, so I have reservations about the method. But there may be a positive aspect that you deny the opponents bidding space (assuming partner can be persuaded to cooperate) even in those cases where the opps buy it, and that denial may end them up in the wrong contract, where knowledge of your shape is only a limited compensation. Amsbury/Payne thought that denying the oppos a free reign particularly at the 1NT rebid and continuations was worth a premium, particularly given the nebulous definition of the 1-minor opening. Same theory recommends contesting the Precision 1D opener almost as much as the Prec 1C.

[Gerben42]

Another success for the natural sandwich NT.

 

[hv=d=w&v=a&n=sj32hk854d63c7652&w=sat97h96dat9caj94&e=sq865hjt32dkq5c83&s=sk4haq7dj8742ckqt]399|300|Scoring: IMPs[/hv]

 

Nunes Rodwell Fantoni Meckstroth

1NT Pass Pass Pass

 

NS -120

 

Freeman Lauria Nickell Versace

1♣ Pass 1♥ 1NT

Pass Pass Double Pass

Pass Pass

 

NS -500

 

USA 9 IMPs

[Free]

Here's what I play these days:

 

1X - pass - 1Y - ?

 

Dbl = other suits, equal length/quality

1NT = other suits, highest suit longer or better

2X = other suits, lowest suit longer or better

2Y = natural

2NT = 55+ other suits, very weak or GF

3X = GF lowest unbid suit

3Y = GF highest unbid suit

Other bids are natural, jumping is weak.

 

About suit length/quality:

We consider any suit with less than QT or K 1 shorter than it's actual length. For example, T9876 is considered only a 4 card, QT432 is considered a 5 card. So with QTxx-Kxxx or QTxx-Jxxxx we double, with Jxxxx-AJxxx we bid 2X to show a longer lowest suit,...

 

This method gives us a great advantage in competitive bidding because we know about partner's suits and their lengths. Ofcourse, when opps buy the contract they also know this information...

[kenrexford]

As to bidding RHO's suit as natural, I had two great stories from round one of the 2005 Vanderbilts, each that call.

 

The first was a delayed bid (because partner did not know what a direct bid showed -- natural). 1D-P-1S-P-2D(alerted as showing four hearts)-P-2H-2S-P-3NT-X-P-P-P. Making 3NT. As the 3NT bidder, I held 98-A1098-AJx-xxxx and expected partner to probably have two of the top three and three of the top four spade honors, probably a stiff heart, probably a doubleton diamond, and probably some good clubs. Hence, 3NT seemed to have play.

 

Dummy hit with KQJxx-xx-xx-AKxx. I won the heart lead and switched to a small spade, floated and winning. The marked deep hook in diamonds (duck if RHO splits) eventually leads to 9 tricks. (Spades split 4-2)

 

The second was more fun. Holding K8-K9xxx-Ax-Axxx, I heard 1C-P-1H, to me. Now, I should have good hearts, but we were NV and I was looking for a board, so I overcalled 2H. My LHO did not believe me and bid 3H. Pard did not believe me either and bid 3S, doubled.

 

A heart hit the table, and partner was looking at J10xx-void-Kxxxx-xxxx. The heart lead was trumped in hand, then diamond-diamond, both following, ending in hand. A third diamond was sent at dummy and ruffed, pard's LHO ditching a heart. Pard ruffed another heart, played to the club Ace, and ruffed another heart. A fourth diamond was ruffed on dummy, LHO being unable to beat the dummy's King of spades. On the fourth play of hearts from dummy, pard ruffed with his spade Jack and poor LHO could not overruff the Jack either.

 

That's two diamonds, one club, two spade ruffs in dummy, and four spade ruffs in hand. Nine tricks.

 

See, natural overcalls of RHO's suit are neat. :D

[cherdano]

Another success for the natural sandwich NT.

 

Dealer: W Vul: All Scoring: IMPs

♠ J32 ♥ K854 ♦ 63 ♣ 7652 ♠ AT97 ♥ 96 ♦ AT9 ♣ AJ94 ♠ Q865 ♥ JT32 ♦ KQ5 ♣ 83 ♠ K4 ♥ AQ7 ♦ J8742 ♣ KQT

 

Nunes  Rodwell    Fantoni    Meckstroth 

1NT      Pass        Pass          Pass

 

NS -120

 

Freeman    Lauria    Nickell      Versace

1♣          Pass        1♥        1NT

Pass          Pass          Double      Pass

Pass          Pass

 

NS -500

 

USA 9 IMPs

In my opinion this hand is too weak for a natural 1NT.

 

Arend

[Gerben42]

In my opinion this hand is too weak for a natural 1NT.

 

If you need more then:

 

* It will come up even less.

* Partner will have less when it comes up.

* If partner has less AND it comes up, it will play even worse than this 2 down.

 

I know, when they have responded light I might miss a game. But how many times do I have to pay up before I finally get my game?

[MickyB]

In my opinion this hand is too weak for a natural 1NT.

 

Arend

Yes, and it seemed a strange situation to use it - against a pair like Meckwell, who open and respond light, you are more likely to have a game on and much less likely to be doubled when you haven't.