Strong club with a 4cM

[foobar]

I think tossing away the symmetric relay structure is good regardless of whether or not this would theoretically fit. Adapting your openings to suit the structure is throwing good money after bad, in my opinion. The more I see of symmetric relay the more it looks like a poor idea.

If that's the payoff I'd rather abstain and play openings and responses that are geared for competition.

 

IMO, this is a premature conclusion. Like anything else symmetric relay is a tool, and it can be used for better or worse. Gratuitous use of relays will undoubtedly result in poor outcomes, and sometimes, a judicious exploration for a slam will result in game being wrong sided.

 

If that's the payoff I'd rather abstain and play openings and responses that are geared for competition.

Are you sure that canape passes this criteria in spades? I would rather that the opening makes the canape nature of the hand evident upfront, rather than open "may have longer suit", and hope to survive competition.

[DavidKok]

IMO, this is a premature conclusion. Like anything else symmetric relay is a tool, and it can be used for better or worse. Gratuitous use of relays will undoubtedly result in poor outcomes, and sometimes, a judicious exploration for a slam will result in game being wrong sided.

I agree in theory, but not in practice. Which partnerships, in your opinion, use symmetric relay properly? I picked Woolsey-Bramley exactly because they are world class. If they get to a hopeless 6♥, how are mortals like me supposed to improve on them? More than that, why put this effort into a method that comes up ~2.5% of all deals, and doesn't win big (and might even lose on balance) when it does? I wish it were more promising, but so far I can't find examples of high level play that supports this.

 

Are you sure that canape passes this criteria in spades? I would rather that the opening makes the canape nature of the hand evident upfront, rather than open "may have longer suit", and hope to survive competition.

Yes. Each system has weak hands, but I think canapé is ahead of standard in competition most of the time. Being able to open a major (if we have one) with 11-13 balanced hands is a distinct advantage, both when it comes up and through negative inference. The problem hands are 4♦5♥, which might get preempted in spades, and 5M4-5♣, where the opening promises only 4. In return you are better placed on most other hand types in the 11-15 range. Furthermore, responder has much greater safety to bid in competition on minimum values and shape, since 3-card support in an unbid suit provides safety. Lastly we also find our 3-5 major suit fits (opener has 3) faster, protecting against fourth hand interference. The auctions are shorter and more descriptive.

[foobar]

I agree in theory, but not in practice. Which partnerships, in your opinion, use symmetric relay properly? I picked Woolsey-Bramley exactly because they are world class. If they get to a hopeless 6♥, how are mortals like me supposed to improve on them? More than that, why put this effort into a method that comes up ~2.5% of all deals, and doesn't win big (and might even lose on balance) when it does? I wish it were more promising, but so far I can't find examples of high level play that supports this.

 

Off the top of my head, I would suggest Simon de Wijs and Bauke Muller (Tarzan Club), and others might have more examples of world class pairs that play symmetric.

 

Perhaps, you can start a separate thread on symmetric relays on this forum. Regarding the success and failure of KK-relay, BW has a few threads on the topic, and based on what I have seen, Kit is very willing to engage in related discussions, so you can try asking about this specific auction.

 

Being able to open a major (if we have one) with 11-13 balanced hands is a distinct advantage, both when it comes up and through negative inference. The problem hands are 4♦5♥, which might get preempted in spades, and 5M4-5♣, where the opening promises only 4. In return you are better placed on most other hand types in the 11-15 range. Furthermore, responder has much greater safety to bid in competition on minimum values and shape, since 3-card support in an unbid suit provides safety. Lastly we also find our 3-5 major suit fits (opener has 3) faster, protecting against fourth hand interference. The auctions are shorter and more descriptive.

 

I am *really* skeptical that "maybe 11-13 balanced with a 4CM (and maybe unbalanced with a longer suit)" is a desirable feature of an 1M opening in competition.

[PrecisionL]

Keylime and I have been playing 4-card Major opening bids and Positive Responses to 1♣ with 4 or more cards in a major for over 10+ years in our C3 Strong Club System, Copious Canape Club. :)

 

We play simple Relays (Usually the cheapest bid) after a Positive Response (8+ hcp) of 1♥ or higher to an opening bid of 1♣, 16+.

 

We also play canape style opening 1-bids (other than 1♣) with a 2♣ Artificial & Game Invitational response (limit raise or better) to learn the rest of the distribution.

 

Once upon-a-time we played Sabine Auken's 2♣ relay after 1M openings, but decided they were two complicated. :(

 

We will open balanced good 4-cd Majors with 10-12 hcp (AQxx, KQxx), otherwise it is a canape distribution or one-suited (12+ hcp).

1NT opening is 13-16 hcp Balanced including 5M.

Further details upon request.

[foobar]

Keylime and I have been playing 4-card Major opening bids and Positive Responses to 1♣ with 4 or more cards in a major for over 10+ years in our C3 Strong Club System, Copious Canape Club. :)

 

We play simple Relays (Usually the cheapest bid) after a Positive Response (8+ hcp) of 1♥ or higher to an opening bid of 1♣, 16+.

 

We also play canape style opening 1-bids (other than 1♣) with a 2♣ Artificial & Game Invitational response (limit raise or better) to learn the rest of the distribution.

 

Once upon-a-time we played Sabine Auken's 2♣ relay after 1M openings, but decided they were two complicated. :(

 

We will open balanced good 4-cd Majors with 10-12 hcp (AQxx, KQxx), otherwise it is a canape distribution or one-suited (12+ hcp).

1NT opening is 13-16 hcp Balanced including 5M.

Further details upon request.

 

Sounds like balanced 11-12 hands without a good 4CM pass in that case?

[PrecisionL]

Sounds like balanced 11-12 hands without a good 4CM pass in that case?

Yes indeed.