Too tempting

[jillybean]

My resolve didn't last long, haha, but it isn't really a bidding question.

1♦ 2♠ would have been a weak jump

 

 

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[TylerE]

When you agree to play WJS by an UPH you give up on being able to show this hand.

[jillybean]

When you agree to play WJS by an UPH you give up on being able to show this hand.

So, do you pass?

[smerriman]

If I were forced to play without Soloway, I would bid as you did, then try 3♠, then in a couple of bids time realise there's no way to keycard or cuebid or investigate slam, gamble by jumping to 6♠, and hope I'm right.

[LBengtsson]

If I were forced to play without Soloway, I would bid as you did, then try 3♠, then in a couple of bids time realise there's no way to keycard or cuebid or investigate slam, gamble by jumping to 6♠, and hope I'm right.

 

Whilst I agree with this, taking the bidding slowly may get you to the optimal contract. If you do not use a Soloway Jump here in the auction, partner will have to factor in that you could have a hand like this and you do hold the top trump suit.

 

The important thing is Fourth Suit Forcing should be seen as a progressive bid asking partner what sort of hand he has and providing an answer to the question? Because FSF is not only a GF but it is asking bid. What the reply 3♣ is telling me here is partner is likely 5/5m, probably without a ♥ stopper and probably without ♠ support. That is only a approximate.

 

It may be difficult to reach where you can go after bidding 3♠ here, but you must not lose hope that you can make a grand slam with reasonable odds - partner has a stiff ♠ and cards in the minors to dispose of your losers. But getting there could be tricky, I agree.

[mikeh]

Whilst I agree with this, taking the bidding slowly may get you to the optimal contract. If you do not use a Soloway Jump here in the auction, partner will have to factor in that you could have a hand like this and you do hold the top trump suit.

 

The important thing is Fourth Suit Forcing should be seen as a progressive bid asking partner what sort of hand he has and providing an answer to the question? Because FSF is not only a GF but it is asking bid. What the reply 3♣ is telling me here is partner is likely 5/5m, probably without a ♥ stopper and probably without ♠ support. That is only a approximate.

 

It may be difficult to reach where you can go after bidding 3♠ here, but you must not lose hope that you can make a grand slam with reasonable odds - partner has a stiff ♠ and cards in the minors to dispose of your losers. But getting there could be tricky, I agree.

I see FSF somewhat differently.

 

To me FSF says: we’re going to at least game. Please make the cheapest natural bid, over after which I will tell you my preferred strain and we can discuss (through bidding) our degree of fit and each partner’s opinion about level.

 

Sometimes responder is genuinely interested in opener’s suit lengths. Were we 6=3=1=3 we’d become very interested in clubs after the 3C bid, but with this hand we didn’t much care what partner did because we intend to bid 3S not matter what (unless he surprised us with a 2S bid over which we might…not would…bid keycard).

 

So to me, sometimes we use FSF in order to find out about partner’s hand but on other occasions as a prelude to telling him about ours.

[smerriman]

So to me, sometimes we use FSF in order to find out about partner’s hand but on other occasions as a prelude to telling him about ours.

The hard part to me is figuring out which.

 

Specifically, 2♥ here might be looking for a heart stopper for 3NT - say, 6322. So after hearing we don't have one, my 3♠ feels more like I still don't know what trumps should be. Partner might have a void spade, so if they bid a minor over this, it's probably natural, still looking for the best spot. Now the only spade bid I have left is surely a signoff. Which is why on this hand I feel like I'm going to have to end up arbitrarily gambling on a jump to slam. (And why I like Soloway, though the strong one suiter is very rare; the splinter comes up much more often).

[Cyberyeti]

What would 2♠ or 3♠ be instead of 4SF, one of them should be the one suited rock crusher.

[Tramticket]

What would 2♠ or 3♠ be instead of 4SF, one of them should be the one suited rock crusher.

 

I agree that there must be a way of setting setting spades as trumps and forcing the bidding. We would play that 2♠ is invitational. This leaves two routes to make a forcing spade bid: (1) 3♠ instead of 4th Suit Forcing or (2) 4th Suit Forcing, then spades. We would play that the immediate spade bid sets trumps.

[the hog]

When you agree to play WJS by an UPH you give up on being able to show this hand.

 

Nonsense. As 2H is a game force, Jilly can bid 4th suit forcing and then bid S.

"FSF says: we’re going to at least game. Please make the cheapest natural bid, over after which I will tell you my preferred strain and we can discuss (through bidding) our degree of fit and each partner’s opinion about level." This.

"What would 2♠ or 3♠ be instead of 4SF, one of them should be the one suited rock crusher." More nonsense. 2S would be 8-9, 6/7 S and 3S 10-11.

[nullve]

Nonsense. As 2H is a game force, Jilly can bid 4th suit forcing and then bid S.

Of course she can. But 3♠ over

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥

3♣

 

is not even close to showing a solid spade suit, because Responder might just be looking for a 6-2 spade fit.

 

Which is unlikely to be a problem, because over

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥

3♣-3♠

3N

 

Responder can cuebid 4♥ to set spades as trumps.

[Cyberyeti]

Nonsense. As 2H is a game force, Jilly can bid 4th suit forcing and then bid S.

"FSF says: we’re going to at least game. Please make the cheapest natural bid, over after which I will tell you my preferred strain and we can discuss (through bidding) our degree of fit and each partner’s opinion about level." This.

"What would 2♠ or 3♠ be instead of 4SF, one of them should be the one suited rock crusher." More nonsense. 2S would be 8-9, 6/7 S and 3S 10-11.

 

The only time I've ever played WJS outside precision (my partner was caught in the Icelandic ashcloud and I played an important KO match with a sub whose card I played) 2♠ was GF and a subsequent 3♠ showed this.

 

I totally disagree with your interpretation after 4SF, what do you do with a 17 count and 7 spades to the K empty ?

[Tramticket]

"What would 2♠ or 3♠ be instead of 4SF, one of them should be the one suited rock crusher." More nonsense. 2S would be 8-9, 6/7 S and 3S 10-11.

 

 

You seem to have three ways of showing spades with less than game values. The auction 1♦-1♠; 2♣-3♠ with 10-11 is particularly ugly. The main reason for playing WJS in my opinion is to avoid having to play a dicey part-score contract at the three-level.

[P_Marlowe]

3S

 

This showes a game forcing self sufficient suit.

And yes, it maybe cog, but ... at one point in time you need to start showing the suit you have.

 

Playing WJS, there are 2 styles, the hog outlined the one I play, the jump rebid being inv. ( I would set the ranges

a bit different, but the nature of the bid is, what is relevant).

The 2nd style makes the jump rebid forcing, 1S followed by 2S showes the inv. hand with 6 spades, this maybe the older

one.

But given that openings get weaker, it makes sense, to play the 1st style mentioned, it allowes to differentiate a bit

better the various hands with a 6 card spade suit.

[jillybean]

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We are still alive but it didn't get any easier, partner is showing 55 minors, most likely 1255

 

WJS minimally discussed, with a regular partner I play SJS and the auction is obviously easier, perhaps.

[P_Marlowe]

Not related to WJS, the question is, what was 3C?

 

Was it the default response to FSF, i.e. opener would bid this way with 5-4,

in which case 3C would not be bid with 64, and 4D now should be a cue for spade,

or did 3C show a 5th club, the default bid being 3D, in which case 4D should be

65.

 

I would key card, the good thing is, I have all KC in the spade suit, if p showes

only 1KC I am settling for 6S, if I hear 2KCs, I know, he took the KC ask as diamond based,

I will investigate 7S further.

[jillybean]

Not related to WJS, the question is, what was 3C?

 

Was it the default response to FSF, i.e. opener would bid this way with 5-4,

in which case 3C would not be bid with 64, and 4D now should be a cue for spade,

or did 3C show a 5th club, the default bid being 3D, in which case 4D should be

65.

 

 

Unclear, undiscussed other than partner would show other major or 3 card support now. I assumed it would be 55

 

Before I post the full hand, this is how the auction would have started playing SJS

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[P_Marlowe]

Unclear, undiscussed other than partner would show other major or 3 card support now. I assumed it would be 55

 

Before I post the full hand, this is how the auction would have started playing SJS

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3S

 

Lets see, what partner can add. tell.

Depending on your KC agreements, you can do the KC direct, you will find out about the

missing Kings, missing Ace.

I would treat the spade suit as self sufficent, even vs. a void.

I would bid the slam only, if I find out 1A, 3K, otherwise settle for 6.

 

I dont like the 3D cue, it is shortage in partners long suit, but before you start discussing

this, discuss the default bid in a FSF seq.

[smerriman]

"SJS asking partner to cue" is not how SJS work, so the auction won't go like that at all.

 

I see we've had more comments that 3♠ in the original auction shows a self sufficient suit - can someone respond to my earlier comment about how auctions are meant to proceed after you were looking for a heart stopper if 3♠ is no longer an option? Maybe this is what nullve was getting at but it wasn't clear what 3nt meant - something artificial?

[mikeh]

"SJS asking partner to cue" is not how SJS work, so the auction won't go like that at all.

 

I see we've had more comments that 3♠ in the original auction shows a self sufficient suit - can someone respond to my earlier comment about how auctions are meant to proceed after you were looking for a heart stopper if 3♠ is no longer an option? Maybe this is what nullve was getting at but it wasn't clear what 3nt meant - something artificial?

3S, after FSF, would not show a ‘self sufficient suit’.

 

It WOULD show a suit which should be adequate as trump opposite x, but since we are still looking for game, it seems incredibly limiting (and thus unplayable) to restrict it to a self-sufficient suit’ if, by that, one implies solid or near solid. Adequate as trump doesn’t mean no losers or even just one loser…in 4S we can afford to lose 3 tricks and we don’t much care which ones they are.

 

It denies the desire to bid notrump or raise a minor.

 

It could be a solid suit but, if so, it has slam ambitions….with no slam ambitions and a very good suit, one bids 4S.

[jillybean]

"SJS asking partner to cue" is not how SJS work, so the auction won't go like that at all.

 

The way we play SJS is the suit is set, partner has a self sufficient holding, slam interest and asks partner to cue.

I'm not sure how your SJS works.

 

If I was bidding this with SJS partner, he likes to show all cues after the SJS, so ♦ can be made on shortage. Non standard, I don't really have a strong opinion on this.

 

In either auction, if you ask for Aces partner will show 1

[smerriman]

@mike: OK, that sounds better. So if partner has a singleton spade, they raise to 4♠, and we can keycard or cuebid from there. If partner bids 4 of a minor, the only bid is 4♠? And 3nt from partner, having already denied a stopper, shows.. a partial stopper?

 

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

[Cyberyeti]

The way we play SJS is the suit is set, partner has a self sufficient holding, slam interest and asks partner to cue.

I'm not sure how your SJS works.

 

If I was bidding this with SJS partner, he likes to show all cues after the SJS, so ♦ can be made on shortage. Non standard, I don't really have a strong opinion on this.

 

In either auction, if you ask for Aces partner will show 1

 

It's reasonably standard in cue bidding auctions that your first cue in partner's suit is not a shortage. This means partner evaluates his AQxxx correctly. It's much better to bid 3♥ then bid 4♦ later if you get the chance. The corollary is that partner with a bad diamond suit can't sign off because you might still have a singleton.

[jillybean]

It's reasonably standard in cue bidding auctions that your first cue in partner's suit is not a shortage. This means partner evaluates his AQxxx correctly. It's much better to bid 3♥ then bid 4♦ later if you get the chance. The corollary is that partner with a bad diamond suit can't sign off because you might still have a singleton.

Yes :)

[jillybean]

 

@jillybean - ah, your first S meant strong, not Soloway. I have no idea how they work then, I thought they died out years ago when everyone moved onto Soloway.

That's rather presumptuous! One of the attractions of this game is the many ways one can play it.