Strength or Length? (12-14NT)

[jillybean]

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12-14NT

 

What is more important here?

We have XYZ if we bid 1NT partner may go back to 2♥ with a non invitational hand.

If we agree to bid the spades here, does South need to stretch to respond with a hand that would accept game opposite a 17 count?

If we bid 1NT and partner responds 2♣ (xyz) should North bid 2NT to show the strong NT?

[Cyberyeti]

We play 1♠ as "forcing if you had a response" so an easy 1♠ for us.

[DavidKok]

1♠, 99% forcing. I think you are overthinking this, 1NT is not a legitimate candidate.

[mikeh]

I don’t understand that last question.

 

If we rebid 1N over 1H, haven’t we already shown the strong notrump hand? So over 2C, xyz, what on earth would cause us to bid 2N, rather than the obligatory 2D?

 

As for whether one should rebid 1S or 1N, I think it a close call. I’d bid 1S 100% of the time were my heart a lower card, but if he pulls 1N to 2H, the stiff queen might be as useful as xx, and xx wouldn’t be a surprise.

 

Meanwhile, 1N doesn’t (in my partnerships) deny 4 spades, but it could easily cause us to miss a 4=4 spade fit when he’s too weak to move over 1N. It’s easy to construct hands on which spades is our best strain.

 

But, otoh, 1S can cause rebid problems for partner, who may end up giving us a preference to 2D when we belong in 1N, but he doesn’t want to bid it with xxx in clubs. Also, assuming he takes a call over 1S, we are going to be tempted to bid again since now we have undisclosed extras, so we might be tempted to bid an ugly 2N next time…indeed, we pretty much have to since partner could have 9-10 hcp

 

 

Weighing all of these, I think that 1N is my slight preference.

[DavidKok]

Interesting. I would not open this hand a strong NT, and knowing partner has hearts opposite does not encourage me to try anyway. I'm quite worried partner will pull 1NT to 2♥ holding only 5, which rates to be a MP disaster. In addition we might miss 4-4 spade fits, or partner might mistakenly upgrade their heart holding after we promise some tolerance. I think wrongsiding 1NT or landing in 2♦ is the smaller cost on balance.

[jillybean]

I said this,

If we bid 1NT and partner responds 2♣ (xyz) should North bid 2NT to show the strong NT?

 

I meant this,

 

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[mikeh]

I said this,

If we bid 1NT and partner responds 2♣ (xyz) should North bid 2NT to show the strong NT?

 

I meant this,

 

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That is a big problem, and a factor in my slight preference for a 1N rebid

 

It’s a good problem hand. Imo, choosing the best answer to the initial rebid issue requires thinking ahead…yes, 1S shows an unbalanced hand and ensures we don’t miss a spade fit, while minimizing the risks of landing in an uncomfortable 2H contract, but it creates other issues, including what to do over any of 1N 2D or an improbable 2H (responder could have 6+ hearts and the wrong hand/suit for an opening 2H call…or 2D if playing multi).

[Cyberyeti]

That is a big problem, and a factor in my slight preference for a 1N rebid

 

It’s a good problem hand. Imo, choosing the best answer to the initial rebid issue requires thinking ahead…yes, 1S shows an unbalanced hand and ensures we don’t miss a spade fit, while minimizing the risks of landing in an uncomfortable 2H contract, but it creates other issues, including what to do over any of 1N 2D or an improbable 2H (responder could have 6+ hearts and the wrong hand/suit for an opening 2H call…or 2D if playing multi).

 

Basically the way I see it, you can bid this hand as 4243 (1N rebid) or 4144, but bidding the actual hand is difficult, which is the lesser lie ? I'm not terminally unhappy with 1♦-1♥-1♠-1N-2♣ bidding it as if 4144/4054. If you open 1♣ on the 4144 (we don't) you're even better placed.

[P_Marlowe]

1S.

 

After the 1NT response by partner, bid 2C.

Whaterver it is, pattern out / FSF, you have it, for us it

would be FSF, but:

The most likely shape will be 5431, i.e. pattern out:

with a 6th diamond you would rebid diamond,

with 3 hearts, you bid 2H,

with 5422 you can bid 2NT.

 

With regard to your question: Shape / Lenth.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

1S.

 

After the 1NT response by partner, bid 2C.

Whaterver it is, pattern out / FSF, you have it, for us it

would be FSF, but:

The most likely shape will be 5431, i.e. pattern out:

with a 6th diamond you would rebid diamond,

with 3 hearts, you bid 2H,

with 5422 you can bid 2NT.

 

With regard to your question: Shape / Lenth.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

That would, I think, be a very unusual use of FSF. FSF is usually played by responder, not opener. Plus I don’t understand how opener, having made a nf 1S ( it may rarely be passed but it isn’t forcing in normal methods) can now, after partner bid 1an(denying any primary fit and ,Ii ting his hand) can suddenly force with a possibly artificial bid

 

 

How does one bid, say, AJxx void KJxxx Axxx?

[Cyberyeti]

That would, I think, be a very unusual use of FSF. FSF is usually played by responder, not opener. Plus I don’t understand how opener, having made a nf 1S ( it may rarely be passed but it isn’t forcing in normal methods) can now, after partner bid 1an(denying any primary fit and ,Ii ting his hand) can suddenly force with a possibly artificial bid

 

 

How does one bid, say, AJxx void KJxxx Axxx?

 

The same way if you don't agree to pass 1N on that, it's not artificial, it's 3-4 cards pseudo natural and not forcing but not passed often (a 5-6 count with 4 hearts and 5 clubs for example).

[mikeh]

I think I knew that 😃. I was responding to the suggestion that 2C was 4SF, lol

[the hog]

I would bid 1NT on this hand. I would bid 1S if the H card was a low card. Yes I also play 1S as forcing here but on this hand believe 1NT to be a better bid.

[thepossum]

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12-14NT

 

What is more important here?

We have XYZ if we bid 1NT partner may go back to 2♥ with a non invitational hand.

If we agree to bid the spades here, does South need to stretch to respond with a hand that would accept game opposite a 17 count?

If we bid 1NT and partner responds 2♣ (xyz) should North bid 2NT to show the strong NT?

 

What is the reason for not bidding 1 spade? - what does 2 spades mean? EDIT silly me that's a jump reverse. No idea what that means

Is 1 spade a reverse? or you need some other way to show a good hand

Would 2NT work?

 

Now to read the thread and what the experts say. I try to be unbiased by expert opinion when I comment - as I am sure is obvious

 

EDIT Still reading the thread and I think people overcomplicate Bridge

EDIT 2 After 1 NT do you bid 2NT or 3NT - what does responder have? I know things became more complicated after I learned Bridge

[Cyberyeti]

What is the reason for not bidding 1 spade? - what does 2 spades mean? EDIT silly me that's a jump reverse. No idea what that means

Is 1 spade a reverse? or you need some other way to show a good hand

Would 2NT work?

 

Now to read the thread and what the experts say. I try to be unbiased by expert opinion when I comment - as I am sure is obvious

 

EDIT Still reading the thread and I think people overcomplicate Bridge

EDIT 2 After 1 NT do you bid 2NT or 3NT - what does responder have? I know things became more complicated after I learned Bridge

 

For most although not us, 2♠ is 18-22 or so at least 4-5 in the blacks, 2N is 18-19 bal

[Tramticket]

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I don't understand the problem. Partner has shown 6-9 and I have a decent 17. I invite with 2NT and partner accepts with 8 or 9.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't understand the problem. Partner has shown 6-9 and I have a decent 17. I invite with 2NT and partner accepts with 8 or 9.

 

the problem is partner has xx, Kxxxx, x, Jxxxx, they lead spades, you never get to dummy, at least you make 2♣ if you bid that.

[Tramticket]

the problem is partner has xx, Kxxxx, x, Jxxxx, they lead spades, you never get to dummy, at least you make 2♣ if you bid that.

 

Partner so won't usually respond with a four-count, let alone bid 1NT and I'm not keen to distort my bid to take into account a sub-minimum response.

[bluenikki]

Partner so won't usually respond with a four-count, let alone bid 1NT and I'm not keen to distort my bid to take into account a sub-minimum response.

7 Goren points.

 

For good reason.

[P_Marlowe]

That would, I think, be a very unusual use of FSF. FSF is usually played by responder, not opener. Plus I don’t understand how opener, having made a nf 1S ( it may rarely be passed but it isn’t forcing in normal methods) can now, after partner bid 1an(denying any primary fit and ,Ii ting his hand) can suddenly force with a possibly artificial bid

 

 

How does one bid, say, AJxx void KJxxx Axxx?

For us, Bidding the 4th suit is always art., this is a meta rule, which works reasonably well, not always,

but reasonably well, I also know, that players in N/A encounter quite often 5440 shapes, more often than I do.

 

The 1 NT response is still 6-10, so having a common signal can be quite usefull, if you have a unbal.

hand with 17/18, with suits that may not be strong enough to force to game.

 

And I would pass 1NT with the hand you have given.

[mikeh]

Partner so won't usually respond with a four-count, let alone bid 1NT and I'm not keen to distort my bid to take into account a sub-minimum response.

I think you’re out of touch with current expert practice (I’m not saying this is universal, but I think it’s common) in that most routinely respond to 1m with as few as 3 or 4 hcp.

 

KJxxx xxx x xxxx I doubt you’d find a lot of good players passing 1D. Obviously that’s not this hand, but I’m responding to the point about hcp requirements for responding to 1m

[Tramticket]

I would respond 1S on the hand quoted Mike, but I wouldn't respond 1NT very often with a four-count. For us, opener is entitled to expect 6-9 for a 1NT response and 1D-1H; 1S-1NT is that same 1NT response with a four-card heart suit (in the context of our Acol system). There is a downside in continually shading the requirements for a response, if opener can't make an invitational raise with the hand given in the opening post.

[akwoo]

the problem is partner has xx, Kxxxx, x, Jxxxx, they lead spades, you never get to dummy, at least you make 2♣ if you bid that.

 

Yes, I bid 1H after partner's 1D opening with that hand, but I would pass partner's 1S rebid. It's a 4-2 fit, but 1N rates to be absolutely terrible.

 

I see the arguments for a 1N rebid by opener here, but I would rebid 1S, because what to bid after 1D-1N with a 17 count is a problem I've faced many times as a weak NT player, and I'm fairly confident I know the odds, and the problem after 1D-1H-1S-1N is the same problem. (With opener's hand I invite with 2N.) Sequences where I rebid 1N with a singleton I'm a good deal less certain about. I don't mean to say that 1S is the better bid, only that the problems it is likely to pose are more familiar and I'm more likely to get them right.

[Cyberyeti]

Yes, I bid 1H after partner's 1D opening with that hand, but I would pass partner's 1S rebid. It's a 4-2 fit, but 1N rates to be absolutely terrible.

 

 

this may be a style thing, but I bid 1N in the hope it doesn't stay there because partner is 4-6 or 4-7 and bids 2♦. If he's 4-5 and can't bid again, 1N may be no worse than anywhere else I can actually finish up.