freak hands and didn't get the optimal result

[AL78]

MPs, playing 5CM strong NT, not 2/1:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=shaq973d5caj98754&n=sakq8762hkjtdt32c&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1cp1sp2cp3s(invitational)ppp]266|200[/hv]

 

I was South. I thought about opening 1♥ and would have if it had been 56 shape but thought 57 is too much of a difference in length to distort. As expected partner bid spades strongly and the bidding died in 3♠ which just made for an average, however we had a heart slam on. I'm not trying to imply we should have reached it but being in 4♥ would have been an improvement. Can anyone offer some hints on how I/we could have bid this better.

[DavidKok]

I would have rebid 2♥ with the South hand. I have an agreement that rebidding 3♥ on the round after shows a 5/6 and does not promise a very strong hand (although it is forcing). The shape is too important to not show because of a missing ace.

 

Partner's 3♠ is awful on the given sequence, that's a solid 7 card right there. The North hand is closer to a slam try than an invitational bid. Also: if 3♠ is invitational, what are 1♣-2♠, 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♦ and 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♠?

[Cyberyeti]

I would have rebid 2♥ with the South hand. I have an agreement that rebidding 3♥ on the round after shows a 5/6 and does not promise a very strong hand (although it is forcing). The shape is too important to not show because of a missing ace.

 

Partner's 3♠ is awful on the given sequence, that's a solid 7 card right there. The North hand is closer to a slam try than an invitational bid. Also: if 3♠ is invitational, what are 1♣-2♠, 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♦ and 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♠?

 

We like to play an artificial 2♦ inv+ relay over 2♣, others play the relay GF.

 

We could also bid 1♣-1♠-3♥ shows 2 good suits, not a particularly good hand 5-6. I've been in worse contracts than 6♥ on these cards, and we could blunder there.

[pescetom]

The obvious answer is to open 1H, but of course we've seen North's hand.

I think I would probably have done so anyway because I don't have a decent rebid after 1C-1S and even after 1C-1D things could get tricky.

[shyams]

I would open 1♣ as well. And over 1♠, I too would rebid my club suit.

 

As others noted, the 3♠ bid is a massive underbid. I totally agree with Cyberyeti's note that 2♦ must serve as an artificial relay.

 

Then (i.e. over a 2♦ rebid by North), your partnership agreements would come into play. For example, does a jump to 3♥ show this hand or a splinter in support of (a potential) diamond fit? In the absence of any special agreements, South has an easy 2♥ bid available.

[Cyberyeti]

I would open 1♣ as well. And over 1♠, I too would rebid my club suit.

 

As others noted, the 3♠ bid is a massive underbid. I totally agree with Cyberyeti's note that 2♦ must serve as an artificial relay.

 

Then (i.e. over a 2♦ rebid by North), your partnership agreements would come into play. For example, does a jump to 3♥ show this hand or a splinter in support of (a potential) diamond fit? In the absence of any special agreements, South has an easy 2♥ bid available.

 

3♥ would show a different sort of hand for us, a just sub reverse 4-6 but that might be the best bid on this hand, would continue 3♠-4♥

[Cyberyeti]

The obvious answer is to open 1H, but of course we've seen North's hand.

I think I would probably have done so anyway because I don't have a decent rebid after 1C-1S and even after 1C-1D things could get tricky.

 

YOu're really going to enjoy 1♥-2♦ ? particularly if 3♣ shows extras ?

[Tramticket]

I hate the non-forcing 3♠ bid in Acol, this is why we prefer to play 1m-2M as weak (4-8 we play), then 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ is invitational (about 9-12 for us) and the auction given in the opening post is game forcing.

 

If you are still playing strong jump-shift responses, then why not 1C-2S here?

[ali quarg]

I'm in the MAFIA camp so will always open 1♥ and keep bidding ♣ if no ♥ fit is found

[Cyberyeti]

I hate the non-forcing 3♠ bid in Acol, this is why we prefer to play 1m-2M as weak (4-8 we play), then 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ is invitational (about 9-12 for us) and the auction given in the opening post is game forcing.

 

If you are still playing strong jump-shift responses, then why not 1C-2S here?

 

Not good enough for SJS particularly on what maybe a misfit for us, make it AKQxxxx, Kxx, Axx and we're talking

[AL78]

Also: if 3♠ is invitational, what are 1♣-2♠, 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♦ and 1♣-1♠; 2♣-2♠?

 

1♣ - 2♠: Game forcing with a decent 6+ spade suit.

 

1♣ - 1♠: 4+ spades, 4+HCP, forcing.

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2♠: Minimum, 6+ spades, shut up partner.

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2♦: Natural, 5+ spades, 4+ diamonds, forcing for one round (I think).

 

Having looked at the responses I can see there is a case for weak jump shift responses which allows 1X - 1Y; 2X - 2Y to be invitational.

[mycroft]

Two quotes, one mine, one the Emperor's:

1. "Forcing and ostensibly Natural, but if she had to fake a bid, that's the bid she would fake."
   
2. "If you reverse into [m: bid naturally] a 3-card (or shorter) suit, rebid your original suit as soon as possible or partner will assume you have four in the second suit."

I think everyone knows my call as North, if 2♣. Now, third round 3♠ shouldn't be passable.

 

As for South, I think another one from Jeff's list: "Grant Baze says, 'six-five, come alive.' It often pays to bid with 6-5 hands, even when you think it's nuts." Argument for 2♥ instead of 2♣.

 

Having said that, taking either of those statements, it could easily be hard to stay low enough. Turns out KJT is magic this time, though.

[ali quarg]

Not good enough for SJS particularly on what maybe a misfit for us, make it AKQxxxx, Kxx, Axx and we're talking

North has to force and a self-sustaining 7 card suit with 13hcp is enough to go to 4♠

[Cyberyeti]

Anybody forming a partnership, I'd consider something artificial over 1m-1M-2m as one of the first "beyond totally basic" agreements I would want, essentially there are several ways of doing it, ours is home hashed and basically is a bit like 4th suit forcing where 2 of the suits are the same with 2N and the relay suit inverted in places so 1♦-1♠-2♦-2N would be spades and hearts INV, 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♦-2N would be 5♣/4♦.

[nullve]

1♣-1♠

2♣-2♦

2♥-2♠

3♥

[Cyberyeti]

North has to force and a self-sustaining 7 card suit with 13hcp is enough to go to 4♠

 

It's GF, but the single suited type of GF needs to have serious slam interest for us because we will also GF on AKJxx, xxx, x, KQxx, that's 1♣-2♠ and those hands being more common use the cheap rebids.

[mikeh]

It’s unfair for me to criticize Acol bidding, since I’m unfamiliar with it. However, if 3S is non forcing, responder needs to improve his or her hand evaluation. Stop pong short of game, even discounting for the club void, seems wrong to me on basic, system independent grounds

 

As for the central question…how to bid as dealer. Imo the suits are too weak, were I 5=6, to open 1C and bid 2H over 1S or 1N. I’d want, say, AQxxx AKJxxx

 

But I’m not 5=6, I’m 5=7 and my hearts are quite good plus I have the club Ace. So, while I think it’s close, I bid 1C then bid hearts twice if possible

 

Btw, I’ve never understood using 1C 1S 3H as 5=6. The opps are not in our auction, responder is essentially unlimited, we haven’t found a fit, and we’re at 3H on the third partnership bid

 

I think some pretty good pairs do use this treatment but suspect the hand type is closely defined. It pretty much has to be when destroying one’s own constructive bidding space

 

Me? 1C 1S 3H sounds like and is a splinter, which may be rare but is usually very informative to partner.

 

Would I get to slam with a regular partner? I don’t know. I suspect not if only because I don’t see the auction timing out to allow opener to show the diamond control.

[Cyberyeti]

Btw, I’ve never understood using 1C 1S 3H as 5=6. The opps are not in our auction, responder is essentially unlimited, we haven’t found a fit, and we’re at 3H on the third partnership bid

 

I think some pretty good pairs do use this treatment but suspect the hand type is closely defined. It pretty much has to be when destroying one’s own constructive bidding space

 

 

We have a lot of auctions where to minimise the memory load "all auctions of this type, these bids mean x", the use of double in "3 suits bid by us and opps" auctions being another where it may not be optimal in particular cases. Here we use 1♣-1red-2♠ this way for 5-5s and 1♦-1♠-3♣ also. Our singleton splinters tend go thru a GF 2N anyway.

[pescetom]

YOu're really going to enjoy 1♥-2♦ ? particularly if 3♣ shows extras ?

 

I would rebid 3♣ with curiosity and some hope, the way we play 2/1 at least: partner is not bidding spades and is forcing to game unconditionally, he has five decent diamonds and has not denied three or even four card fit in hearts.

It's a risk of course, but I'm more concerned about 1♣-1♠;2♥ (which would tempt me, but is a confidence-killing overbid in my partnerships) or 1♣-1♠;3♥ (which is not a splinter for us but not likely to win thanks either) or even 1♣-1♦;1♥ and then XYZ 2NT;3♣-3♠ or similar.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I have full sympathy, if someones ends up in 4S - 1.

Getting to 4H will be hard North due to the strong 7 carder headed by AKQ.

And this is even true after a 1H opening.

You find it recommended quite often to drop the 4 carder with a 7-4 shape, and I guess,

if I dont go looking for a 4-4 with 7-4 I am not going looking for 5-3 in partners 2nd suit.

 

Getting to 4S wont improve the score, but the quality of the auction.

And obviously, North cant make a NF 3S bid, either bid 2D as NMF or bid 4S.