Can you bear to pass ?

[Cyberyeti]

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dealt in practice, so vul/form of scoring wasn't relevant, indicate if you think it matters.

 

How much does partner need to bid or double with one long and one short major ?

[DavidKok]

Anything other than pass is seriously tempting fate. Never mind that partner might have some values, there's no way to get to a sensible contract. Partner won't have a 6cM with some values (and wouldn't double if they had that) and this hand doesn't look good for 3NT.

[nullve]

3N

[mikeh]

Vulnerability and firm of scoring definitely, imo, matter

 

I can’t imagine them being red. Even my most aggressive partner (who might have K9xxxx at favourable) wouldn’t have bid 3C on this hand without at least 8 of them or some side surprise.

 

Plus I expect to beat 3C one or two tricks even if partner is broke, and +300 v our possible nv game is no big deal at imps and any plus may be ok at mps

 

But if they are, as surely they must be, nv, +150 or so may not score well.

 

If we’re red v white at imps I can’t afford to pass even though 3N will often fail. It will make too often to risk passing.

 

Given that 1D didn’t promise much, partner needs good values to double….at least a 9 count imo and it had better be a good 9 count….and with both majors, unless he has reasonable diamonds. I can and often would bid 4M over a double, since I have no invitational action available so he shouldn’t be stretching to bid unless he expects 5D to have play should I bid his short major.

 

Given that, I just can’t pass. But they may have got me. If RHO doubles, I’m going to be really sad.

 

Partners of mine from twenty years ago would be surprised by my gambling, but contrary to perceived wisdom, it’s possible to become more aggressive as one gets older😀 or am I confusing that with becoming more foolish?

[DavidKok]

We know partner is probably short in clubs. Some expert pairs play double as forcing to game here, in which case partner might still hold a reasonable 10-count. For the rest of us we really can't expect more than a 7-count. If we can't finesse in clubs too often I just don't see 9 tricks - we're playing partner for a non-positional spade stopper and filling for our diamonds, and even then we might go off on a heart lead if partner's stopper isn't the ace.

 

I also think this is a good situation for the LOTT. The opponents have bid at best a 9 card fit, and likely an 8 card fit. We don't have length in the majors, and partner failed to raise our diamonds. I would not be surprised if the par on this deal is 1NT or 2♦.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner's hand is KJ8xxxx, Qx, Jx, xx not telling where the opposing cards are, are you happy with defending 3♣ ?

[DavidKok]

No, and also not with partner.

[Cyberyeti]

No, and also not with partner.

 

What do you want him to do ? 3♠ is a massive overbid, what are you going to do over it ? and how are you going to feel with the same hand with ♦Qxxxx if he acts ?

[mikeh]

No, and also not with partner.

What the heck do you want him to bid? 3S?

 

Opener never has say x KJxx AKxxx Kx when he opens 1D?

 

I predict a double of any game you bid. Are you happy with partner now? I mean, you weren’t happy with his pass so surely you’re happy with your -500 wherever you land?

 

Or would you prefer correcting 4H to 4S or is he supposed to bid only 3H?

[Cyberyeti]

What the heck do you want him to bid? 3S?

 

Opener never has say x KJxx AKxxx Kx when he opens 1D?

 

I predict a double of any game you bid. Are you happy with partner now? I mean, you weren’t happy with his pass so surely you’re happy with your -500 wherever you land?

 

Or would you prefer correcting 4H to 4S or is he supposed to bid only 3H?

 

He doesn't have that often as there are only 12 cards there, but you're making my point slightly differently.

[mikeh]

He doesn't have that often as there are only 12 cards there, but you're making my point slightly differently.

Picky! Maybe the TD will find an ace for me?

[the hog]

DavidKok, what is partner supposed to bid. As you said you are not happy, suggest an acceptable alternative to pass?

[LBengtsson]

This is a excellent hand to post, with a good amount of discussion. My take (without seeing being influenced by what partner actually has) is to treat 3♣ as a standard pre-empt not an intervening bid. Opposite a standard pre-empt I would be playing partner for about 8 HCPs so would wish to be in game. I would bid 3NT if East had opened 3♣ and the ♣ suit is good for three tricks even when West overcalls 3♣. (I might think otherwise if I had a ♣ suit without the three honor cards, plus the ten.)

 

So I think you should bid 3NT here. That's my take.

[DavidKok]

DavidKok, what is partner supposed to bid. As you said you are not happy, suggest an acceptable alternative to pass?

I was plannig to bid 4♠, weaker/more unilateral than 3♠. I thought there is a reasonable chance that we're making game even if partner has a 12-14 balanced, something like ♠Axx, ♥Axx, ♦AQxx, ♣xxxx.

I've tried to come up with a few more example hands, but on second thoughts most 12-14 hands won't make game (unless partner has the ace of clubs, which is unlikely on the auction). I'm not so sure anymore that I like bidding. Although of course there is a reasonable chance partner doesn't have a balanced minimum, but we'll likely survive in that case either way.

[Cyberyeti]

I was plannig to bid 4♠, weaker/more unilateral than 3♠. I thought there is a reasonable chance that we're making game even if partner has a 12-14 balanced, something like ♠Axx, ♥Axx, ♦AQxx, ♣xxxx.

I've tried to come up with a few more example hands, but on second thoughts most 12-14 hands won't make game (unless partner has the ace of clubs, which is unlikely on the auction). I'm not so sure anymore that I like bidding. Although of course there is a reasonable chance partner doesn't have a balanced minimum, but we'll likely survive in that case either way.

 

4♠ will cost you. The most you can make is 2♠, they can make 2♥, 3♣-2 hits the par of 100 for 3♥x-1 NV (which they'd have to be given the really bad overcall).

 

3♥ might make for them if you get a different auction where the big hand gets persuaded to lead a spade.

 

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[DavidKok]

Yes, I'm well aware 4♠ will give me a terrible score on this hand (having seen the South hand in the first post). I think the bid has got things going for it, though. There are hands where we make when partner wouldn't even keep the auction live. And if partner does bid something, are we really settling for less than 4♠ with that hand? If partner doubles, do we bid 3♠ (can be a 4-card suit with a 0-count?)? If partner bids 3NT, do we pass?

 

But, as I said above, it's probably too aggressive on reflection. So pass, and maybe someone will tell me what to bid if partner doubles or bids 3♦ (or 3NT).

 

I still dislike 3NT by South. I don't see how North can have the stoppers and filling to make that a good contract.

[nullve]

The most you can make is 2♠

Not true.

 

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As you can see by pressing the 'GiB' button, 4♠ is only down 1, on a club lead.

 

Edit: Corrected the auction.

[Cyberyeti]

Not true.

 

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As you can see by pressing the 'GiB' button, 4♠ is only down 1, on a club lead.

 

This is true if you read everything correctly, and if you're going to do things like run the ♦9 to the J which is not clearly right (you'll love it losing to a stiff Q and getting a heart switch for example).

[LBengtsson]

It is not poor judgement imo to try to find game on this hand. How would be bidding have gone without the 3♣ pre-empt? With either partner or the opps. holding different cards then 4♠ makes. I would guess, just off the top of my head, that East holding ♠AQ10 over North is somewhere in the region of 5-10% only.

 

Yes, the 3♣ pre-empt on the actual hand does matter, but not everyone is bidding this way. The bidding on the actual hand could have gone 1♦ - (Pass) - 1♠ - (2♥) - 2NT/3♣ (pick your poison, I prefer 2NT) - (pass) - and what does North say now? 3♠ only? Never!

 

He has three extra ♠ than his 1♠ bid signifies, and normally a 2NT rebid from partner would be forcing to game. I expect most expert partnerships would be in either 4♠X-1 or 4♠-1. And even expert partnerships sometimes go down in contracts, or so my granny says :) (God rest her soul)

[Cyberyeti]

It is not poor judgement imo to try to find game on this hand. How would be bidding have gone without the 3♣ pre-empt? With either partner or the opps. holding different cards then 4♠ makes. I would guess, just off the top of my head, that East holding ♠AQ10 over North is somewhere in the region of 5-10% only.

 

Yes, the 3♣ pre-empt on the actual hand does matter, but not everyone is bidding this way. The bidding on the actual hand could have gone 1♦ - (Pass) - 1♠ - (2♥) - 2NT/3♣ (pick your poison, I prefer 2NT) - (pass) - and what does North say now? 3♠ only? Never!

 

He has three extra ♠ than his 1♠ bid signifies, and normally a 2NT rebid from partner would be forcing to game. I expect most expert partnerships would be in either 4♠X-1 or 4♠-1. And even expert partnerships sometimes go down in contracts, or so my granny says :) (God rest her soul)

 

we would start

 

1♦-P-1♠-2♥

x(exactly 4 clubs, not necessarily extras)-P-2♠-

 

now not clear what happens

[mikeh]

This is a excellent hand to post, with a good amount of discussion. My take (without seeing being influenced by what partner actually has) is to treat 3♣ as a standard pre-empt not an intervening bid. Opposite a standard pre-empt I would be playing partner for about 8 HCPs so would wish to be in game. I would bid 3NT if East had opened 3♣ and the ♣ suit is good for three tricks even when West overcalls 3♣. (I might think otherwise if I had a ♣ suit without the three honor cards, plus the ten.)

 

So I think you should bid 3NT here. That's my take.

I also bid 3N but I think you’re mistaken in your argument that you play this as if West has a standard preempt.

 

Had it gone 3C P P then I think it’s correct to assume that partner has half the missing hcp…estimating that is tricky because of our club holding…just how aggressive is west?

 

While we assume roughly 7-8 hcp, that’s because he would pass with 0-10 for sure (leaving aside unusual hands) and most ir at least many 11-12 hands and even 13 on occasion, with xx in clubs.

 

Thus when we assume 7-8, we’re somewhat protected from the 2-6 hands by the offsetting stronger hands, on balance

 

Once we’ve opened, it’s extremely unlikely that he has 11 and he won’t even have a good 9 with 4-4 (or better) in the majors or with 4 diamonds or with one major and diamond support (where he can double and pull the ‘wrong’ major to diamonds

 

The set of hands he can have is thus more constrained than we should play him for had west opened and it is, imo, a mistake not to take that into account.

 

I still bid 3N, despite knowing now that passing was best. Btw, what does east need to double 4S? A guarantee from the bridge gods?

[akwoo]

I wonder if one might get it "right" and pass playing weak NT.

 

Playing weak NT, responder should act around 1-2 hcp more aggressively in this situation, because opener is either unbalanced (though that could mean 1453 - not so great) or 15+. That means opener can correspondingly act 1-2 hcp less aggressively.

 

Probably not - opener's hand is sufficiently better than the usual 15 balanced here and responder can't act for that.

[the hog]

"I think the bid has got things going for it, though.". It certainly does - it will earn thanks from he opponents. Else the bid has nothing going for it except the end to a partnership.