how many hearts?

[mikeh]

Ok, now I do whatever my art GF is. If you don’t have an art GF here… fix that.

I just don’t understand this

 

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has.

 

Indeed, an immediate 4N makes sense. When using keycard, a direct 4N is or should be simple Blackwood….were our hearts AQxxx we’d have to set trump first.

 

Using Jacoby will sometimes help, since even simple jacoby responses allow us to identify spade shortness before we launch into keycard and reasonably sophisticated methods allow for size ask as well as shortness ask.

 

So we may as well use jacoby, but then keycard. I have zero idea of what you meant by saying this is a hand for telling, not asking. Now, we’re we 5=6=1=1, I’d understand….xxx in spades would be a very bad holding so we might want to show spades and find out if partner can support the suit, but that’s an entirely different hand. If you think AKJxx KQxxxx x x is close to AKJxxx KQxxx x x, in terms of how one plans an auction after partner opens 1H, you have a lot to learn.

[jillybean]

 

Indeed, an immediate 4N makes sense. When using keycard, a direct 4N is or should be simple Blackwood….were our hearts AQxxx we’d have to set trump first.

 

This is a little twist that we don't use. RKC is always for the agreed suit or last bid suit but that's going back to the days when I couldn't open 1nt with 2 doubletons.

I understand when you use it, I'm still pondering why.

 

edit: Is this because with this hand, or a different hand, ie slam interest with a self sufficient suit or a hand probing in NT, you may only need an Ace ask and first setting trump or leaking unnecessary information is a distraction?

[the hog]

"My partners always have ♠xxx, ♥xxx, ♦xxx, ♣KQTx on this auction."

 

My partners would NEVER hold this hand. As I play a semi forcing NT response, this hand clearly fits into that category.

I would bid 3♦ Kathryn, and then 4♥ over 3♥.Also you are quite correct, 2H is far better than the 1♠ response.

 

[the hog]

On your 6511 hand I am not messing about. I would simply bid 4NT over 1H and then set the contract.

[the hog]

"I just don't understand this

 

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has."Exactly! Why futz about? Just bid 4NT

 

[mikeh]

This is a little twist that we don't use. RKC is always for the agreed suit or last bid suit but that's going back to the days when I couldn't open 1nt with 2 doubletons.

I understand when you use it, I'm still pondering why.

 

edit: Is this because with this hand, or a different hand, ie slam interest with a self sufficient suit or a hand probing in NT, you may only need an Ace ask and first setting trump or leaking unnecessary information is a distraction?

It’s so rare that I don’t recall ever doing it. I’m sure I have but it would have been many years ago.

 

However, it’s pretty standard. Every good player I’ve had any serious system discussion, where this comes up, knows it

 

As for when you use it, it’s when you have your own very long, strong suit and, typically, a stiff in partner’s suit. You need the ace, not the king. Keycard treats the two as equivalent, which is sensible when you intend to play that suit as trump or need to know whether that suit can be established or run. I’ll give you a silly example to make the point: partner opens 1H and you hold AKQJxxxxx x A KQ

 

You don’t give a damn about the heart king and partner is never supporting spades, plus you don’t care about his spades. All you care about is how many aces he has. You have 11 tricks in your own hand so no answer to 4N can embarrass you. More to the point, the heart king is completely irrelevant. So bid 4N.

 

There is NEVER any reason to create confusion. If you need keycards, then set opener’s suit as trump before asking. In your example, had responder’s hearts been AQxxx rather than KQxxx he has to set trump because the heart king is a critical card. But with his actual hand, all he needs are aces and an immediate 4N gets the job done.

 

Also, and definitely possible given our shape, good players strain to interfere over jacoby. For example, if I were at favourable vulnerability I’d happily bid 3D after (1H) P (2N) on KQJ10x and nothing else….I’d really hate to see the auction reach 5m before I got to ask for aces!

 

Bridge can be complicated, and I love the nuances of the game. But many non-experts make the game far more complicated than it needs to be. Here, responder learned J2N so felt he had to use it. We had a poster claim that the best start was 1S and then use some artificial gf over a 1N rebid

 

This is perhaps the simplest hand posted here in years, yet we see everyone trying to make it complicated.

[the hog]

Just another thought onKxAKxxxxAKxxx

Mats Nilsland wrote a series of interesting articles on Major suit raises on Bridgewinners.One comment he made was that he does not play trial bids as they give away too much information to the opponents.A new suit after a raise is a slam try in that suit, so 1H 2H 3D here is a slam try in Ds. That would seem to solve all your problems. If you have a trial bid, just bid game and try to make it.

 

[jillybean]

"I just don't understand this

 

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has."Exactly! Why futz about? Just bid 4NT

Futz, what a super Yiddish word :)

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakjt97hkq862d5c2&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1hp4np5s(3)p?]133|200|[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

I would have started with a 2♠ SJS because it would make it easier for me to find out about ♠Q in our methods, if partner has it with his 3 aces I'll play 7N, otherwise 7♥. If partner has ♠xxx I may be unlucky.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s53haj943da9caqj6&w=sq62h5dkj64ckt983&n=sakjt97hkq862d5c2&e=s84ht7dqt8732c754&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1hp4np5sp7hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

16 pairs, 3 found 7♥

[the hog]

"I would have started with a 2♠ SJS because it would make it easier for me to find out about ♠Q in our methods, if partner has it with his 3 aces I'll play 7N, otherwise 7♥. If partner has ♠xxx I may be unlucky.."

Yes, that is REALLY important at IMPS.

 

[Tramticket]

5♥, to play opposite 0

 

 

South gave a 3♥ response to Jacoby, showing extras. You can't be missing three aces.

[thepossum]

Still feeling that some people mistake complexity with skill level

 

People definitely trying to make basic stuff seem hard and mystify it as advanced

 

People do the same with regression modelling - oh my model has 10 more variable than theirs - but do they understand the basics :lol:

 

Paid by the variable these days I imagine

 

If Bridge was big media prime time sport it would be paid by the bid for sure - ads and unnecessary commentary between every bid too

 

Oh I forgot the constant challenges and video review every step too

 

People will be looking at bidding stats and wondering why the team with most bids does not necessarily win

 

Hand 1 - I'm not messing around - thinking about slam - but if not straight to game

Hand 2 - I haven't looked yet - still at the 2-level apparently - apologies - someone didn't mess around :)

 

I will probably never get another decent game of Bridge in my life :(

[jillybean]

Just another thought onKxAKxxxxAKxxx

Mats Nilsland wrote a series of interesting articles on Major suit raises on Bridgewinners.One comment he made was that he does not play trial bids as they give away too much information to the opponents.A new suit after a raise is a slam try in that suit, so 1H 2H 3D here is a slam try in Ds. That would seem to solve all your problems. If you have a trial bid, just bid game and try to make it.

1H 2H 3D can't be a slam try in diamonds. FYP 😂

1H 2H 4H, now try to make it. Hmmm I'm not convinced information leak from trial bids is a concern for club and tournament bridge.

[helene_t]

Start with 1♠ and then if partner appears to have 3-card spade support, we can find out if they have ♠Q. Otherwise set hearts as trump and ask for aces.

[Cyberyeti]

"I would have started with a 2♠ SJS because it would make it easier for me to find out about ♠Q in our methods, if partner has it with his 3 aces I'll play 7N, otherwise 7♥. If partner has ♠xxx I may be unlucky.."

Yes, that is REALLY important at IMPS.

 

I got the impression this was pairs, but is really important if you're suffering a trick 1 ruff which is by no means impossible when if partner has the ♠Q and at least one more you have at least 13 off the top in NT.

 

Our auction:

1♥-2♠(SJS, GF fit or single suited rock crusher)

3♣(at least Q/xx♠, ostensibly natural)-3♥(fit type, no long suit/high card diamond holding I want to show, no A/K♣)

3N(♦ cue)-4♣(shortage)

4♥-4♠(Kickback)

4N(0/3)-5♥(signoff opposite 0)

6♥(I have 3, but no other K, would bid 5N with ♠Q]-7♥

[sfi]

1H 2H 3D can't be a slam try in diamonds. FYP

1H 2H 4H, now try to make it. Hmmm I'm not convinced information leak from trial bids is a concern for club and tournament bridge.

Why can't 3D be a slam try? It's not common, but when it comes up it really simplifies the rest of the auction. Responder immediately knows whether their cards are working or not.

 

And information leakage is a big thing with game tries at any level. For the past few years we've been playing a structure where we only have one game try (the next step over the 2M raise). Responder can show where their values are if unsure whether to bid game or not, but giving the opponents no information about opener's distribution has proven to give us at least half a trick advantage on average.

[jillybean]

Why can't 3D be a slam try? It's not common, but when it comes up it really simplifies the rest of the auction. Responder immediately knows whether their cards are working or not.

 

And information leakage is a big thing with game tries at any level. For the past few years we've been playing a structure where we only have one game try (the next step over the 2M raise). Responder can show where their values are if unsure whether to bid game or not, but giving the opponents no information about opener's distribution has proven to give us at least half a trick advantage on average.

 

You've opened 1H and partner has supported hearts but you are now making a slam try in diamonds knowing nothing about partners diamond holding?

I can see perhaps if you were 6♥6♦, or some such extreme distribution that you would want an immediate cue outside of the red suits. I assume you'd end up in a heart slam unless partner can also show support for ♦?

 

I'll think about the "only slam try" approach. I do like bidding slams and starting at the 2-3 level is exciting.

[DavidKok]

It's a slam try in hearts with a side diamond suit, not a slam try in diamonds.

[sfi]

Yes, you're aiming at 6H rather than 6D. Imagine a hand like:

[hv=pc=n&n=s7hakt853dakt32ct]133|100[/hv]

 

Don't you want partner to value black aces and red queens and jacks? That's what 3D as a slam try does for you. 3D as a natural game try doesn't quite do the same thing because partner will often just jump to game on a flat 9-count because they are maximum. Now you kind of need to go on (otherwise bidding 3D rather than 4H doesn't make sense in the first place), but sometimes the 5-level is risky.

[sfi]

I'll think about the "only slam try" approach. I do like bidding slams and starting at the 2-3 level is exciting.

A bit more about this, or at least the way I like to play it:

 

Over 1M-2M, our only game try is the next step. Responder can bid 3M or 4M if they know whether to accept, or bid a new suit to show soft values in that suit. The way we describe it is "would reject a short-suit game try in this suit, but would accept others." So holdings like Qx, Kxx and AKJ are examples of suits that might be bid this way. Obviously responder skips any suit they would accept in, and opener can make a counter-try by bidding a new suit to say "bid 3 if you would reject a short-suit try here". It's not perfect, but it seems to work well.

 

All other bids are natural-ish slam tries (length is expected but not guaranteed). Responder should raise to show a fitting honour (A/K/Q), cue a side ace, bid 3M with a semi-suitable hand or 4M or warn partner off. Then whatever cues you normally use. This also means that if you have a sequence like 1H-2H; 3D-3H; 3S-4D, the 4D cue has to show shortage rather than an honour.

 

The other point is that 2NT acts as a substitute for spades when the auction starts 1H-2H:

• 1H-2H; 2NT = slam try with spades
  
• 1H-2H; 2S-2NT = soft values in spades
  

[the hog]

I got the impression this was pairs, but is really important if you're suffering a trick 1 ruff which is by no means impossible when if partner has the ♠Q and at least one more you have at least 13 off the top in NT.

 

Our auction:

1♥-2♠(SJS, GF fit or single suited rock crusher)

3♣(at least Q/xx♠, ostensibly natural)-3♥(fit type, no long suit/high card diamond holding I want to show, no A/K♣)

3N(♦ cue)-4♣(shortage)

4♥-4♠(Kickback)

4N(0/3)-5♥(signoff opposite 0)

6♥(I have 3, but no other K, would bid 5N with ♠Q]-7♥

 

I doubt whether many are interested in these esoteric auctions that you pose after seeing both hands..

[the hog]

Jilly" "1H 2H 3D can't be a slam try in diamonds. FYP "Why on earth not? This is especially the case if you play constructive single raises.AQxxx x Axxx AKx

Kxx xxx KQJxx xx I would be very disappointed not to get to 6D here.

As far as trial bids leaking information, I think even a club player can recognise that if you bid a trial suit and partner accepts it may not be a good idea to lead that suit.

[the hog]

David Kok "It's a slam try in hearts with a side diamond suit, not a slam try in diamonds.

David please do not comment if you do not know! and you clearly do not! It is a slam try with Ds as a possible slam suit.

 

[TylerE]

I find it a bit funny to see someone arguing for constructive raises (my personal pick for worst convention ever... support with suppport!) to be so incredibly arrogant.