I have 14, partner opens 1nt 15-17

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1n(15-17)p2d(transfer)p2hp3dp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

I've shown 5 hearts and 4+ diamonds, (3♦ is forcing) and partner has shown preference for hearts. (No super accept available)

What now, should I be considering slam?

[mw64ahw]

Yes, cue-bid 3♠

[sfi]

Partner will value black aces and minor honours in the red suits. Seems like a good start for a slam exploration.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1n(15-17)p2d(transfer)p2hp3dp3hp3sp4cp4dp4hp?]133|200[/hv]

[mw64ahw]

a) What would 3NT mean in this context?

b) what does 4♦ mean in this context?

4♠ showing even/2KCs as I play it

[Cyberyeti]

Should you be looking for a slam, yes, even if you do super accept, grand can be cold (Axx, Qxxx, AJx, Axx is not really a super accept even if you play them).

 

To add to mw's questions, was 3♦ F1 or FG ? and hence was 3♥ better or worse than 4♥ ? and does it guarantee real hearts or could it be nothing better to bid ?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3H is not a preference for hearts, it should be a fit, and you may or may not have a diamond fit.

In more sophisticated partnerships, 3H would show a fit for diamonds, and a new suit a heart fit, but this

should be discussed before hand (even in my most serious partnership we dont play this, the situation does

not come up often for us to discuss this), but it is a sensible agreement.

 

#2 With a heart fit responder should go looking for slam.

I prefer a cue bidding style, with the first cue being honor based, i.e. 4D would deny AK in spade

and AK in clubs. But this is not mainstream.

 

#3 4D in your seq. should be last train, at least in spirit, saying you want to go on, but dont have 5 level

security, the diamnond control is a given, you have at least 5-4 and SI, hence 4H by opener should be a sign off.

If opener has prime values for slam he should NOT bid 4H, at one point he should express his (lack of ) interest,

and the last sensible point in time is now, he bypasses 4H or not.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[DavidKok]

The 4♦ bid was superfluous, I'm always going past 4♥ on hearing 4♣. I also think we have a better view of the combined trick-taking potential of the hands than partner does, as soon as we hear something about key cards. Time to roll out Blackwood.

[pescetom]

I'm happy with the 4D bid if 3D was GF and the control-bidding is Italian style. But I'm puzzled about why opener is putting the brakes on at 4H, particularly if 3NT rather than 4C would have shown concern about hearts quality. Might he too have 14 and 5 card hearts?

Or you don't play Turbo and he lacks spades control but wants you to RKCB having better vision of the situation?

[jillybean]

Note that this is the N/B forum , no fancy gadgets.

 

RKC, partner shows 2, no Q

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1n(15-17)p2d(transfer)p2hp3dp3hp3sp4cp4dp4hp4np5h(2)p?]133|200[/hv]

[P_Marlowe]

Note that this is the N/B forum , no fancy gadgets.

 

RKC, partner shows 2, no Q

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1n(15-17)p2d(transfer)p2hp3dp3hp3sp4cp4dp4hp4np5h(2)p?]133|200[/hv]

 

Hi,

 

you used RKCB, you found out you are missing a KC and the Queen of trumps, you stop in 5.

The rational being, that slam is at best on a finesse.

If you find out, that slam is at best on a finesse, you stay out.

If you find out, that slam is at worst on a finesse, you bid it.

 

The lack of a super accept makes it more likely, that you have only a 5-3 fit, a 5-4 would mean,

you have a 50+% chance to play the trump suit for 0 loosers, the 5-3 fit means, you need to find the

Queen, and even if you find the Queen, a 4-1 split may sink you, this makes it less than 50%, that you

will be able to play the trump suit for 0 loosers.

And given that they have a cashing Ace, the making slam is less than the req. 50+%, to make the slam odds

on.

 

 

I agree, that last train is a fancy gadget, ..., but I tried to explain, that bidding only 4H should express a

lack of slam interest, and this is not a gadget, it is just another word of saying, that the NT opener does

not have a maximum opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pescetom]

Note that this is the N/B forum , no fancy gadgets.

 

RKC, partner shows 2, no Q

 

If it's N/B and 3♦ is a GF (as I would hope, but you don't say) then the 3♠ control was already a fancy gadget... just RKCB over the positive 3♥. After that it's a clear sign-off (assuming he cannot have 5 card ♥, either by 1NT agreement or by failure to show Q).

[jillybean]

This was a hand sent to me ny a friend. I gave the long explanation (as contributed above) and decided to post it here as I think it is a good instructional hand and, this is a good place to check my sometimes stratospheric slam bidding tendencies.

 

As it turns out, the bidding stopped in 3♦ with opener having thought partner misbid the transfer. This is a good sequence to discuss.

1NT 2♦

2♥ 3♦ (5+ Hearts, 4+ Diamonds, forcing)

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&n=sk632h853daj7cak6&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np2dp2hp3dp]266|200[/hv]

[P_Marlowe]

 

As it turns out, the bidding stopped in 3♦ with opener having thought partner misbid the transfer.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&n=sk632h853daj7cak6&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np2dp2hp3dp]266|200[/hv]

 

I know the following is hard to follow, but the first take away: Never assume partner has misbid.

Never, ever.

Doing this requires trust, partnership trust, trust needs to be build up, past disaster destroy the trust.

I know, ..., try to keep the trust, again and again, if you cant do it anymore, we are mere mortals,

change the partnership.

[pescetom]

This was a hand sent to me ny a friend. I gave the long explanation (as contributed above) and decided to post it here as I think it is a good instructional hand and, this is a good place to check my sometimes stratospheric slam bidding tendencies.

 

As it turns out, the bidding stopped in 3♦ with opener having thought partner misbid the transfer. This is a good sequence to discuss.

1NT 2♦

2♥ 3♦ (5+ Hearts, 4+ Diamonds, forcing)

It's a good sequence to discuss (like all developments over Transfer or Stayman).

I wouldn't be happy to play 3♦ as merely forcing (to 3♥) rather than game forcing.

A beginner doesn't need to understand why that choice was made, but should start off right and understand why later.

 

I know the following is hard to follow, but the first take away: Never assume partner has misbid.

Never, ever.

Absolutely, much more important than what I said.

Also because if the partnership starts to assume this, they may save some scores but will never get better and may be playing a concealed understanding.

[smerriman]

I know the following is hard to follow, but the first take away: Never assume partner has misbid.

Never, ever.

Even when you ask for keycards and partner responds with an impossible number? ;)

[jillybean]

Even when you ask for keycards and partner responds with an impossible number? ;)

That never happens

[DavidKok]

I've had that happen to me earlier this week (partner, after showing a balanced hand, made a void-showing response to my KC ask - we had different interpretations of the last four rounds of the bidding). Oh well, next board.

 

That being said I agree with Marlowe's point. If you stop trusting partner's calls you do not just lose the ability to communicate on that particular sequence, but also on all other sequences that are equally uncommon. You lose much more than one board if you start second guessing partner's calls.

 

5♥ looks like a reasonable contract.

[mikeh]

If it's N/B and 3♦ is a GF (as I would hope, but you don't say) then the 3♠ control was already a fancy gadget... just RKCB over the positive 3♥. After that it's a clear sign-off (assuming he cannot have 5 card ♥, either by 1NT agreement or by failure to show Q).

Another in a never-ending series of posts advocating for keycard even though plausible responses leave one with NO clue as to what to do.

 

Hmmm….partner shows two keycards and the heart queen. Can I make slam? I have no f*@king idea. So why did I ask a question when the answer leaves me utterly helpless?

 

Partner might have Jxx Qxxx AJx AKQx Or AKQx Qxxx AJx xx

 

Hint: if a plausible answer to keycard leaves you with no idea whether to bid slam, don’t use keycard. It isn’t difficult but so many people continue to use keycard to show slam interest rather than to learn when to stay out of slam, which is one of the two proper reasons to use keycard (the other is to look for grand).

[bluenikki]

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hakt74dkq852cq4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1n(15-17)p2d(transfer)p2hp3dp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

I've shown 5 hearts and 4+ diamonds, (3♦ is forcing) and partner has shown preference for h♥er accept available)

What now, should I be considering slam?

I believe it is an overbid to say that partner has shown preference for hearts. Most of the time, the 3♦ bid will come from fear of a black suit. 3♥ is opener's normal bid when when lacking secure spade stop.

[pescetom]

Another in a never-ending series of posts advocating for keycard even though plausible responses leave one with NO clue as to what to do.

 

Hmmm….partner shows two keycards and the heart queen. Can I make slam? I have no f*@king idea. So why did I ask a question when the answer leaves me utterly helpless?

 

Partner might have Jxx Qxxx AJx AKQx Or AKQx Qxxx AJx xx

 

Hint: if a plausible answer to keycard leaves you with no idea whether to bid slam, don’t use keycard. It isn’t difficult but so many people continue to use keycard to show slam interest rather than to learn when to stay out of slam, which is one of the two proper reasons to use keycard (the other is to look for grand).

I agree with much of that, and only advocated RKCB because I was told that my preferred method here of Italian control bidding was inappropriate for N/B. I would teach an Italian beginner to go the Italian way anyway, but I can see that would be inappropriate in NZ where even the author of OP is still getting to grips with this style. But while I agree that RKCB is a very blunt tool in this situation, I don't think it's totally pointless: yes, the 2 keycard + Q reply is no use, but 3 keycards is not impossible after the 3♥ positive (assuming it was positive) and it should be reasonably safe to stop in 5♥ after any other response.

It's not an auction I like or would use myself, but it is what happens in every club in the world and I imagine they are taught that way too.

[bluenikki]

Another in a never-ending series of posts advocating for keycard even though plausible responses leave one with NO clue as to what to do.

 

Hmmm….partner shows two keycards and the heart queen. Can I make slam? I have no f*@king idea. So why did I ask a question when the answer leaves me utterly helpless?

 

Partner might have Jxx Qxxx AJx AKQx Or AKQx Qxxx AJx xx

 

Hint: if a plausible answer to keycard leaves you with no idea whether to bid slam, don’t use keycard. It isn’t difficult but so many people continue to use keycard to show slam interest rather than to learn when to stay out of slam, which is one of the two proper reasons to use keycard (the other is to look for grand).

I don't believe I've ever seen it stated explicitly, but you should have planned in advance your action over every possible Blackwood reply. Huddling before Blackwood is not as damaging as after. By far.

[jillybean]

Another in a never-ending series of posts advocating for keycard even though plausible responses leave one with NO clue as to what to do.

 

Hmmm….partner shows two keycards and the heart queen. Can I make slam? I have no f*@king idea. So why did I ask a question when the answer leaves me utterly helpless?

 

Partner might have Jxx Qxxx AJx AKQx Or AKQx Qxxx AJx xx

 

Hint: if a plausible answer to keycard leaves you with no idea whether to bid slam, don’t use keycard. It isn’t difficult but so many people continue to use keycard to show slam interest rather than to learn when to stay out of slam, which is one of the two proper reasons to use keycard (the other is to look for grand).

 

Partner has signed off after showing a club control and hearing 4♦ from partner, he can't have the ♠A. If he shows 2+Q he has minor Aces, isn't slam a good prospect now?

Just curious :)

[akwoo]

Partner has signed off after showing a club control and hearing 4♦ from partner, he can't have the ♠A. If he shows 2+Q he has minor Aces, isn't slam a good prospect now?

Just curious :)

 

Mikeh was talking about jumping to keycard after 3H. Once you hear a 4C control bid, it's a fine choice.

 

Just to make it clear - 3H should agree hearts and show some slam interest. The possible bids with no slam interest are 3N and 4H.

 

My preference is to play all new suits as control showing for diamonds, but other people have other opinions.

[jillybean]

I completely bypassed the quote and only read Mike's reply. Sorry