Why am I the only one?

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&w=saj5hak542d64c987]133|100[/hv]

(small sample but surprising!)

 

Pass to you.

 

12-14 nt, etc

[TylerE]

Ok, so, I open 1N, now what?

[paulg]

I suspect most of my local club open this 1♥ with the intention of rebidding 2♥.

 

If I am their opponent, there is a far greater chance that they'll open one no trump because they know this is what I would do, but they are not really convinced.

[pescetom]

I don't play weak NT, but if I did I would be happy to open 1NT here?

I've gained the strong ground and can handle almost anything partner may throw at me.

[helene_t]

I am going to show a balanced 12-14 so if the only way to do so is to open 1nt, I will do that.

[mikeh]

Do we have an agreement that 1H 1S 1N has to be a strong notrump? If so, 1N. If not, 1H

 

Why 1H?

 

The hand has two serious flaws for 1N: a good five card major such that we may miss a good 5-3 fit and two wide open suits. Edit for typo. One wide open suit…1N, but not two

[jillybean]

Do we have an agreement that 1H 1S 1N has to be a strong notrump? If so, 1N. If not, 1H

 

Why 1H?

 

The hand has two serious flaws for 1N: a good five card major such that we may miss a good 5-3 fit and two wide open suits. Edit for typo. One wide open suit…1N, but not two

Yes 1H 1S 1N = 15-17. I started out playing 1H 1S 1N 12-14 and 1m 1M 1NT 15-17 but that caused it's own problems so now any 1NT rebid is 15-17

 

I am comfortable with this style but it does mean we may miss competing in our 5-3 major. The upside I think is that we have a check back to find our 5-3 fit and if the opps want to penalize, 1NT (X) pass (P), we have an escape to 2H.

[jillybean]

Ok, so, I open 1N, now what?

Nothing :) but 5/6 players did not open 12-14 NT

[LBengtsson]

What system are you playing here, jillybean? Weak NT with 5M, I guess. 2/1 or not 2/1 responses? Certainly do not like to open 1NT here with two suits open and without a honor. Do I prefer rebidding 2♥ with ♥AK542, or rebidding 2♥ with ♥J106543?

 

I guess it is a matter of style. Interesting that no-one has mentioned if the bidding goes 1♥ - 1♠ raising to 2♠? That does not look quite right given its 5332 shape, but raising to 2♠ does not guarantee a 4 card suit. At least partner is likely to play the hand, in ♠ or NT and if there is a unsupported honor in the minors, it will be sort of protected on a opening lead.

 

If you cannot raise to 2♠ here then opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♥ is the least evil, except if partner insists that you open 1NT with all 12-14 and 5332 shape. One for the post mortem, I guess.

[akwoo]

I play 12-14 1N. This is a 1H opener. If partner responds 1S, this is a 2S raise.

 

I open 1N with 5 hearts more often than partner likes. But not on this hand.

[jillybean]

What system are you playing here, jillybean? Weak NT with 5M, I guess. 2/1 or not 2/1 responses?

2/1, 5 card majors, 12-14NT

[jillybean]

I suspect most of my local club open this 1♥ with the intention of rebidding 2♥.

 

If I am their opponent, there is a far greater chance that they'll open one no trump because they know this is what I would do, but they are not really convinced.

:lol:

Good example of imitating the experts and not really understanding why you are doing it.

[AL78]

If the major is good enough that I am not embarassed to rebid it, I open 1♥ in favour of 1NT. The suit here is good enough IMO, and with aces and kings and two suits holding no honors, it says suit oriented hand to me.

[helene_t]

Over a 1sp response, 2h is a very bad rebid imho. It shows 6 cards. But 2sp is probably OK, and otherwise 2cl is also an option.

[Cyberyeti]

Do we have an agreement that 1H 1S 1N has to be a strong notrump? If so, 1N. If not, 1H

 

Why 1H?

 

The hand has two serious flaws for 1N: a good five card major such that we may miss a good 5-3 fit and two wide open suits. Edit for typo. One wide open suit…1N, but not two

 

A common agreement 30 years ago was that the 1N rebid was 12-16, and you could open flawed weak NTs with the suit. You played Crowhurst over this. We still use this structure but play 15-bad 19.

 

Nowadays pretty much everybody plays the 1N rebid as a strong NT.

 

If your spades were xx and the AJx was elsewhere, you would have no sensible rebid over 1♠ (you're not going to enjoy rebidding 2m and being raised), as it is you could rebid 2♠ although it's not ideal.

 

We would open 1N without a second thought.

[DavidKok]

I'm also concerned about the possibility of 1♥-2♦ back to us (or even 1♥-2♣). Presumably 2NT shows 15-17 while 2♥ implies an unbalanced hand or sixth piece. I don't mind the auction 1♥-1♠; 2♠ (though I don't have a systemic way to show a balanced 3-card raise if partner makes a Spiral ask, so I'll have to invent a singleton in a minor suit or a sixth heart) but honestly I would just open 1NT. The hand has multiple flaws for 1NT, but there are many losing auctions if we start with 1♥ as well. A poor hand for the system.

 

If the auction goes, say, 1♥-(3♣)-3♦-(P); ?, what is your bid? Partner is playing you for extras.

[Cyberyeti]

If the auction goes, say, 1♥-(3♣)-3♦-(P); ?, what is your bid? Partner is playing you for extras.

 

Partner is not playing you for extra strength, just different distribution although not that different (what do you do with a AJx, AKxxx, x, 5432 ?)

[Tramticket]

In the past I have played every variation. I was taught that a 1NT opening would never have a five-card major (in a weak NT four-card major context). Over time, I moved to always opening 1NT with a balanced hand in the 12-14 range.

 

More recently I am being less rigid and this hand would be an acceptable 1H opening (just). I can raise a 1S response and whilst I would rather have a six card suit for 1H-2C/D-2H, I am not promising six. I would have no qualms about opening 1H with: AJxx AKxxx xx xx, so there is certainly no guarantee of a six-card suit in Acol.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1H.

 

Over 1S from partner you can either raise to 2S or bid 2C, you will

pass 1NT from partner and rebid 2H otherwise.

 

In the end this is a partnership style thing, and more important, you

dont decide this, when you pick up the hand, you have discussed this

before hand.

If you go with 1NT you strengthen openers rebid, it will always show a

4 carder, if you go with 1H, you wont miss a 53 fit in hearts.

 

I am fine with opening this one 1NT, but I will open this 1H, we do this,

I am used to it, it works, not always, but most of the time.

But this is also true for going with 1NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

If the auction goes, say, 1♥-(3♣)-3♦-(P); ?, what is your bid? Partner is playing you for extras.

Given that 3D would be xfer for us, showing a constr. heart raise, I will show a min with 3H.

 

One could even argue, that having shon the 5th heart lets you be better placed compared to situation, where you

did not have shown the 5th heart.

[mycroft]

Why are you the only one? Probably where you play.

 

First, there's the one that plays a strong NT. Whether they learned somewhere else, or have been convinced to join "the modern world", or whatever.

 

But it's likely that most of the rest play a weak NT because that's what they learned (mumble) years ago, and their system hasn't changed since. And back in the day - especially in an Acol, rather than K/S context (this is NZ, not Canada, so I assume a British Bridge background) - what Tramticket was taught was what was taught (4cM, so ♥AKxxx is obviously rebiddable). Whether they've moved away from 4cM or not, the feeling hangs on.

 

Sure, Tramticket has moved on from there, but he is a serious student of the game, and is willing to change and work on change and evaluate change if it makes things better. He's here, after all (and his comments for years make it clear). Many - if not most - club players haven't changed fundamental parts of their system since they started playing with that partner - or if they did, it's one of the standard two (SA to 2/1 GF in North America, 4cM to 5cM in RoW (and if they're really old, in NA too)). And 40 years ago they would never have opened that hand 1NT, so they don't now either.

 

I'm a strong proponent (in some partnerships; oddly enough, my K/S partnership isn't one of them) of 5cM in NT. But I too am leery about this one with the minors wide open and with an acceptable 2♠ raise (assuming you'll do that with 3 ever, AJx and a weak doubleton is a prime candidate).

[helene_t]

Most New Zealanders play weak NT and 4-card majors. So

1♥-1♠

1NT*

is typically 15-17 balanced with four hearts. With that shape you don't have the option to rebid 2♣ like you might do with a 2533 16-count if you played the 1NT rebid as 12-14.

 

Another thing is that

1♥-2♣

2♥*

is nonforcing for most of those weak-NT playing New Zealanders. This is because a balanced 16-count with a 4-card hearts would have to pass a 1NT response, so the 2-level response can be done with as little as a good 9-count and hence has a low forcing character. When rebidding a suit non-forcingly you would like to have a suit that plays well with doubleton support and not ridicolously badly with singleton support.

 

So what I am trying to say is that especially in a weakNT/4cM system there is a really good case for opening 1NT with a 5M332. The argument goes

 

Weak&4M -> 1NT-rebid must include (promise?) 15-17 bal -> a 5M332 minimum doesn't have a good rebid if opening a suit

 

and

 

Weak&4M -> 2level shift can be light -> 1M-2m-2M is nonforcing -> better open 1NT to avoid this

 

Of course, there can also be good reasons for opening 1NT in Weak&5 system, but it is somewhat less imperative I think. However, if you play forcing 1NT, you don't want to have a 5M332 minimum when it goes

1M-1NT

2m-3m

[Tramticket]

the 2-level response can be done with as little as a good 9-count

 

I can't comment about New Zealand, but in the UK, the modern tendency is to require a 10-count. Yes, a good 9 HCPs might be upgraded to 10 on occasions, but one of the most important factors in choosing to upgrade should be a useful holding in partner's suit. Whilst 1H-2C-2H is non-forcing, responder will make every effort to find a second bid - particularly if very short in hearts. 1H-2C-2H isn't passed out very often and I can't remember ever playing in a 5-1 misfit on this auction.

 

I do agree with Helene, that the specific 2533 shape is an awkward 1H opening, because you can't raise a 1S response, 1H-1S-2H really should promise a six-card suit and I would be very reluctant to bid 1H-1S-2C with a three-card club suit. I would generally open 1NT with this specific shape.

[Cyberyeti]

I can't comment about New Zealand, but in the UK, the modern tendency is to require a 10-count. Yes, a good 9 HCPs might be upgraded to 10 on occasions, but one of the most important factors in choosing to upgrade should be a useful holding in partner's suit. Whilst 1H-2C-2H is non-forcing, responder will make every effort to find a second bid - particularly if very short in hearts. 1H-2C-2H isn't passed out very often and I can't remember ever playing in a 5-1 misfit on this auction.

 

I do agree with Helene, that the specific 2533 shape is an awkward 1H opening, because you can't raise a 1S response, 1H-1S-2H really should promise a six-card suit and I would be very reluctant to bid 1H-1S-2C with a three-card club suit. I would generally open 1NT with this specific shape.

 

Are you really not bidding 2♣ and passing 2♥ with say xxx, x, xxxx, AKQxx (add a non club jack if you'd bid 1N on that) ? It can happen but you're right it doesn't happen that often.

 

Otherwise I agree with most of what you say. The important agreement is that you never pass 2♥ with 4 unbid spades, so you respond 1♠ with the 4135 version of that hand. The downside of this is that the raise to 2 ♠ on the original hand is more likely to be a 4-3 fit.