Tricky

[jillybean]

#29

 

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Playing inverted minors, 2♦ is gf, 3♦ is preemptive, 2♣ is gf

[smerriman]

What's 3♣? Isn't this usually the limit raise when you agree to make 2♦ GF?

[mikeh]

#29

 

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Playing inverted minors, 2♦ is gf, 3♦ is preemptive, 2♣ is gf

No it’s not

 

Inverted minors can be played as gf, but typically are not. The ‘standard’ way to play inverted minors is for the single raise to show invitational or better values, and the jump to be weak

 

Some do play the single raise as gf (I’ve done it myself but stopped a long time ago), but then they invent a way to show a limit raise. The one I’ve seen, and used, is the jumpshift in the other minor. This is often referred to as ‘criss-cross’

 

Indeed, I’ve played the jumpshift as limit or better, and the single raise as just a single, non preemptive, non invitational raise.

[jillybean]

Yes, 3C limit raise.

How does Opener continue after a L/R, is a new suit ostensibly probing for NT? what are your agreements?

[DavidKok]

I'd treat this as a limit raise normally. With the system constraints I wouldn't mind upgrading this to GF to save the bidding space. A splinter would also work very well - do you show those directly with 3♠, or with an inverted minor followed by a jump to 3♠?

Opposite a 5(+) 1♦ opening we're close to being worth a game force. Opposite your 1♦ opening, i.e. 5(+) or strong notrump or some 4441, I think we are only in trouble facing the 4=4=4=1 hand. The problem with 3♣ is that I expect partner to sign off with many hands where game is worth bidding. I'd rather upgrade than be fixed by the system, since it's so close anyway.

Standard inverted minors (as mikeh explained) would solve the issue entirely.

[jillybean]

How does Opener continue after a L/R, is a new suit ostensibly probing for NT? what are your agreements?

The answer could change openers rebid.

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[DavidKok]

I imagine it's natural, 4(+) and an unbalanced hand. But I would avoid playing 3♣ this way, or bidding it on the example hand.

[mw64ahw]

I would interpret 3♥ as probing for 3NT prior to looking at a ♦ contract so 15+hcp not balanced (probably something like 2452 or 3451 w. weak ♠ given opponents aren't bidding ♠)

For me 3♠ denies the ♠ stopper/shows the splinter/mild slam interest with useful honours.

Partner can then place the contract or further investigate a slam

[jillybean]

I would interpret 3♥ as probing for 3NT prior to looking at a ♦ contract so 15+hcp not balanced (probably something like 2452 or 3451 w. weak ♠ given opponents aren't bidding ♠)

For me 3♠ denies the ♠ stopper/shows the splinter/mild slam interest with useful honours.

Partner can then place the contract or further investigate a slam

1♦:3♣

3♥:3♠ I would play this as showing spade control, a probe for NT

[jillybean]

I imagine it's natural, 4(+) and an unbalanced hand. But I would avoid playing 3♣ this way, or bidding it on the example hand.

So 1m:2m as Limit +?

[AL78]

1♦:3♣

3♥:3♠ I would play this as showing spade control, a probe for NT

 

If you had a spade control, why would you not bid 3NT yourself?

 

It is useful to know what the various bids mean after the 3♣ response. You have 3♦,♥,♠,NT available which can be used to show/deny controls in the major suits. What are your agreements?

[DavidKok]

On 1♦-3♣ you need 3♦ as a signoff. I would make opener bid 3NT with any balanced hand or unbalanced with short clubs and extras, and use 3M as natural unbalanced with shortness in the other major.

I don't like the 3♣ response because it eats up so much bidding space. Meanwhile there is no big downside to using 1♦-2♦ as limit+. The extra level of bidding space gives you room to sort out stoppers as well as strength. Over 3♣ it's a bit hopeless, and both players will end up guessing some of the time.

 

There are quite a few auctions where people have confirmed a minor suit fit and are showing stoppers and probing for 3NT. I think this one is different - we've failed to clarify shape at a low level (we're basically at 3♥) so the normal gadgets won't cut it. Just bid 3NT when it seems right, and use the other bids only with a really pressing reason.

[jillybean]

If you had a spade control, why would you not bid 3NT yourself?

 

It is useful to know what the various bids mean after the 3♣ response. You have 3♦,♥,♠,NT available which can be used to show/deny controls in the major suits. What are your agreements?

 

Partner will not bid 3NT without a Spade and a Club control in this auction.

3♦, 3♥ we use as forward going, initially a probe for NT. 3NT would be an offer to play, no slam interest.

[jillybean]

On 1♦-3♣ you need 3♦ as a signoff. I would make opener bid 3NT with any balanced hand or unbalanced with short clubs and extras, and use 3M as natural unbalanced with shortness in the other major.

I don't like the 3♣ response because it eats up so much bidding space. Meanwhile there is no big downside to using 1♦-2♦ as limit+. The extra level of bidding space gives you room to sort out stoppers as well as strength. Over 3♣ it's a bit hopeless, and both players will end up guessing some of the time.

 

There are quite a few auctions where people have confirmed a minor suit fit and are showing stoppers and probing for 3NT. I think this one is different - we've failed to clarify shape at a low level (we're basically at 3♥) so the normal gadgets won't cut it. Just bid 3NT when it seems right, and use the other bids only with a really pressing reason.

Yes, I must change 1m:2m to limit+ and forget 1m:3om

 

Let me start the auction again

 

 

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[mw64ahw]

Partner will not bid 3NT without a Spade and a Club control in this auction.

3♦, 3♥ we use as forward going, initially a probe for NT. 3NT would be an offer to play, no slam interest.

Partner has bid ♣ rather than a 4 card Major so it's natural; hence you bid ♠ to deny the stopper

[DavidKok]

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It's close between 3♣ (natural) and 3♠ (GF splinter). I am again tempted to upgrade to show all my shape - spade shortage, at most 3 hearts, 4(+) diamonds. Partner will likely expect a 1=3=5=4, which is close. But 3♣ is also very reasonable.

One of the advantages of playing a weak notrump is that partner has denied a balanced hand. 3♣ has the advantage of letting us stop in 3♦ when partner is minimum with 4=4=4=1 (or even 4=4=5=0), while 3♠ has the advantage of giving partner a great description of our hand if game or slam is on.

[jillybean]

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[mw64ahw]

It's close between 3♣ (natural) and 3♠ (GF splinter). I am again tempted to upgrade to show all my shape - spade shortage, at most 3 hearts, 4(+) diamonds. Partner will likely expect a 1=3=5=4, which is close. But 3♣ is also very reasonable.

One of the advantages of playing a weak notrump is that partner has denied a balanced hand. 3♣ has the advantage of letting us stop in 3♦ when partner is minimum with 4=4=4=1 (or even 4=4=5=0), while 3♠ has the advantage of giving partner a great description of our hand if game or slam is on.

I favour 3♣ given opener could still be minimum and 4♦ could be a stretch

[mw64ahw]

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I force the issue with 4♥ showing 2KCs

[DavidKok]

4♦, temporising. I'm not quite willing to sign off with 5♦ just yet. If partner is bidding on even after hearing of our implied club length we have no reason to hate our hand. If partner makes another control bid I'm signing off (even bypassing 5♣ last train). This way, rather than 5♣ last train right away, makes sure we don't steal partner's possible keycard bid.

[jillybean]

I force the issue with 4♥ showing 2KCs

Unfortunately,that is not available in our system.

[jillybean]

Here is the full hand.

Dealer East

 

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I'm East, our auction started off 1D:2NT (misbid)

[thepossum]

#29

 

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Playing inverted minors, 2♦ is gf, 3♦ is preemptive, 2♣ is gf

 

I was going to say why limit yourself with 2 GF options

Seems the thread has progressed already :)

[sfi]

How does Opener continue after a L/R, is a new suit ostensibly probing for NT? what are your agreements?

The answer could change openers rebid.

[hv=pc=n&w=sjhq76dk954caj875&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1dp3c(LR)p3hp?]133|200[/hv]

Responder should be denying a major suit, so typical agreements with partners are that new suits are NT probes. If there is one available suit, it shows values. If there is more than one, it asks for values. So in this situation, we would have the auction:

 

1D - 3C

3H - 3S

 

And now it's up to opener to bid 3NT with a spade stopper. If not, we'll probably wind up in 5D unless opener has enough to look for slam.

[jillybean]

Responder should be denying a major suit, so typical agreements with partners are that new suits are NT probes. If there is one available suit, it shows values. If there is more than one, it asks for values. So in this situation, we would have the auction:

 

1D - 3C

3H - 3S

 

And now it's up to opener to bid 3NT with a spade stopper. If not, we'll probably wind up in 5D unless opener has enough to look for slam.

 

Opener will bid 4♣ / 3♠ but the auction has morphed into a 1D:2D LR+ now :)