Multi checkup

[jillybean]

I'm always on the lookout for Multi possibilities, or my opponents Multi.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa9hq2dqt872cq973&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2h(5%20hearts%20%2B%205%20other%2C%20weak)p?]133|200[/hv]

[mikeh]

If 2H could include spades (and while I think that it’s ok to sometimes bid 2M with a side 4 card minor, I think that 2H has to be 5-5 if the side suit is spades, for precisely this hand type) then 2S seems best.

 

One reason that my partnerships dropped the major two suiter hand is exactly this sort of situation

 

If his side suit is always a minor, we bid 2N because 3m is probably better than 2H plus, importantly, 2N has preemptive value.

 

But imo we can’t afford to force to 3M when he has both majors, and 2N does that

 

The not insignificant problem we have if he could have spades is that, usually, he doesn’t. Then bidding 2S, pass or correct, does two things, neither good for us.

 

It signals weakness. Not for sure…but usually.

 

Worse: there are going to be many hands on which LHO can’t afford 3S now, over 2N, or later but in which he has an easy double of 2S, allowing them into the auction when we know that they have the bulk of the hcp.

 

 

We could pass, out of fear of that double, but any hand that would double 2S will probably balance 2S over 2H….that is a far different situation than having to bid 3S now or later

[jillybean]

The 2H, hearts + another (could be spades) is the main problem I am having with Multi. If I was going to be in NZ for more than just another couple of weeks I would work it out with my partner but I'm not and I am not likely to play it back in Canada. I will go back and read how you play 2N over partners Multi opening again, I'm playing it as ~14+

[Tramticket]

Easy pass for us.

 

You are not making game and are in a seven-card fit. You have goood defence if opponents bid either minor.

[nullve]

2♠ (P/C)

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand, (I'm West) 3♣ was P/C

The bidding, from a competent pair, surprised me. The opening perhaps influenced by their opponents inexperience with Multi.

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa9hq2dqt872cq973&w=sqt52ht74dk65cak4&n=sk743hk9853djcjt6&e=sj86haj6da943c852&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2hp3c9P/C)ppp]399|300[/hv]

[pescetom]

Here's the full hand, I'm West. 3♣ P/C

The bidding, from a competent pair, surprised me. The opening perhaps influenced by their opponents inexperience with Multi.

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa9hq2dqt872cq973&w=sqt52ht74dk65cak4&n=sk743hk9853djcjt6&e=sj86haj6da943c852&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2hp3c9P/C)ppp]399|300[/hv]

Was the TD competent and involved?

It does look as if S knew there might not be 5 cards in second suit.

[jillybean]

I did not call the Director.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=saq7hq4dt972ckq87&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p2d(weak%20M%20or%2020-22)p?]133|200[/hv]

 

Multi weak in a major or 20-22 balanced

My options are 2♥ P/C, 2NT 14+, partner response to 2NT will be 2M minimum, 3C ♥'s max, 3D ♠ max

I know I only have 13

[DavidKok]

2♥ seems like the best call. I don't really see any alternative - pass might work once in a while, but I'd much prefer it if East were an unpassed hand for that action.

[Tramticket]

2H is the system bid.

[apollo1201]

Easy 2H. Even so more at green vs red!

[jillybean]

I'm back in Canada, still having fun with Multi, weak major or 20-22

2♦ (multi) : 2♥ pass or correct

2♦:2N 14+

 

2♦ : 2♠. showing 33xx 11-13 ish

 

Good, bad or are there better uses?

[mikeh]

I'm back in Canada, still having fun with Multi, weak major or 20-22

2♦ (multi) : 2♥ pass or correct

2♦:2N 14+

 

2♦ : 2♠. showing 33xx 11-13 ish

 

Good, bad or are there better uses?

I strongly dislike including a strong option.

 

One of the advantages of weak multi is the freedom it gives responder

 

A common treatment is that 2D 4C asks opener to transfer to his major while 4D asks him to bid his major (allowing choice of who is declarer and also, if one bids 4D, allowing for slam overs next).

 

My point is that responder can bid 4D on some 4441 hand with a very weak hand or a strong hand. He can bid 3H, pass or correct, with a variety of hands.

 

Iow, he can make it difficult for the opps, especially 4th chair if dealer opened 2D.

 

One has to be far more careful, and timid, if partner could have a balanced 22….we don’t have an assured or yet found fit and we can’t bid weak hands the same way we bid strong hands.

 

Multi gains, when it gains, from ambiguity. The ambiguity disappears after the strong 2N rebid and meanwhile, on the vast majority of hands (a weak two is FAR more common than a balanced 22-24) we’ve wilfully thrown away our advantage by not bumping the auction.

[DavidKok]

Earlier this week I started playing the weak-only multi. It came up 5 times the first evening, and two more times if you count our weak two openings as well.

 

We play the structure outlined in https://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/88312-weak-only-multi/. I think including 20-22 balanced will decrease the effectiveness somewhat, giving up on all higher pass or correct bids, the ability to pass and perhaps some stolen bid doubles in competition. As far as I know it is standard for 2♠ to deny spade support and show some amount of heart support (although this is not strictly what we play in weak-only).

 

A common treatment is that 2D 4C asks opener to transfer to his major while 4D asks him to bid his major (allowing choice of who is declarer and also, if one bids 4D, allowing for slam overs next).

 

My point is that responder can bid 4D on some 4441 hand with a very weak hand or a strong hand. He can bid 3H, pass or correct, with a variety of hands.

I agree but want to point out that you 'never' have a strong hand facing the 20-22 type (which is true even more often facing your 22-24). Including strong options in your multi gives up on most jump responses (and as far as I can tell for little benefit) but the 4♣ and 4♦ responses are relatively safe if you don't bid them on preemptive hands (since this style gives up on preemptive raises from the get-go). Weak hands respond as normal, the strong version finds some cute bid between 4NT and 7NT.

[Tramticket]

2D-2NT needs to be strong enough to play in game opposite the upper end of the range for your weak options. It will depend on your range of course, but 14+ sounds too low. You then need to discuss your response to the 2NT inquiry. A simple scheme is that 3C/3D show upper range in hearts/spades respectively and you bid the suit with lower range.

 

You can actually divide the range into three if you prefer, so 3C/3D show either top of range or bottom of range with 3H/S showing the middle of the range. Then bidding the intermediate suit over 3CD asks again whether top or bottom.

 

2D-2S can be any hand where you are prepared to compete to 3H, but not 3S, so likely only a doubleton spade. With 3-3 in the majors, bid 3H (pass or correct)

[mikeh]

Earlier this week I started playing the weak-only multi. It came up 5 times the first evening, and two more times if you count our weak two openings as well.

 

We play the structure outlined in https://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/88312-weak-only-multi/. I think including 20-22 balanced will decrease the effectiveness somewhat, giving up on all higher pass or correct bids, the ability to pass and perhaps some stolen bid doubles in competition. As far as I know it is standard for 2♠ to deny spade support and show some amount of heart support (although this is not strictly what we play in weak-only).

 

I agree but want to point out that you 'never' have a strong hand facing the 20-22 type (which is true even more often facing your 22-24). Including strong options in your multi gives up on most jump responses (and as far as I can tell for little benefit) but the 4♣ and 4♦ responses are relatively safe if you don't bid them on preemptive hands (since this style gives up on preemptive raises from the get-go). Weak hands respond as normal, the strong version finds some cute bid between 4NT and 7NT.

Strong is a relative term

[jillybean]

Thanks. I doubt that I will convince partner to drop the strong part, yet, but will keep it in mind for future.

[the hog]

MikeH: "If his side suit is always a minor, we bid 2N because 3m is probably better than 2H plus, importantly, 2N has preemptive value." This is by far not optimal. 2NT should always show values, not ask for the minor. With the minors as here, bid 3C/3D pass or correct. Who knows you may even pick up their suit .

Jilly after playing 2D Multi for a long time, I have come to the conclusion a 2D opening whould always be some weak 2 and include no strong option. This puts a lot of pressure on the opponents as 2D might even be passed.

2H = H and another is a very poor bid. We gave this up after analysing results as it was a loser.. Play 2H = H and a minor. If you want a bid to show Majors, play 2D as Ekrens.

 

[jillybean]

I'm new to Multi and my partner is already playing a lot of my system so I think I need to make a concession here.

I do dislike 2H hearts + other, I will likely change that to H+m

 

Playing Multi weak+strong, 2NT becomes 55 minors, we play 2C as 23+ (not my favorite)

If we drop the strong hand from Multi do you use 2NT for 20-21(22) hands ? Thus leaving 3C/3D our only method for weak minors.

[jillybean]

2D-2NT needs to be strong enough to play in game opposite the upper end of the range for your weak options. It will depend on your range of course, but 14+ sounds too low. You then need to discuss your response to the 2NT inquiry. A simple scheme is that 3C/3D show upper range in hearts/spades respectively and you bid the suit with lower range.

Our weak range is 6-10 so 14 is low, 15 would be better. We are playing 3C/3D response to 2NT to show upper range.

 

You can actually divide the range into three if you prefer, so 3C/3D show either top of range or bottom of range with 3H/S showing the middle of the range. Then bidding the intermediate suit over 3CD asks again whether top or bottom.

 

2D-2S can be any hand where you are prepared to compete to 3H, but not 3S, so likely only a doubleton spade. With 3-3 in the majors, bid 3H (pass or correct)

I like these. David's system is far superior but too complex for me.

[AL78]

MikeH: "If his side suit is always a minor, we bid 2N because 3m is probably better than 2H plus, importantly, 2N has preemptive value." This is by far not optimal. 2NT should always show values, not ask for the minor. With the minors as here, bid 3C/3D pass or correct. Who knows you may even pick up their suit .

Jilly after playing 2D Multi for a long time, I have come to the conclusion a 2D opening whould always be some weak 2 and include no strong option. This puts a lot of pressure on the opponents as 2D might even be passed.

2H = H and another is a very poor bid. We gave this up after analysing results as it was a loser.. Play 2H = H and a minor. If you want a bid to show Majors, play 2D as Ekrens.

 

With one partner I used to play 2♥ as 5-5 ♥+minor or Acol strong 2♥ or strong balanced, 2♠ was 5-5 spades+other or Acol strong 2♠.

[DavidKok]

Playing Multi weak+strong, 2NT becomes 55 minors, we play 2C as 23+ (not my favorite)

If we drop the strong hand from Multi do you use 2NT for 20-21(22) hands ? Thus leaving 3C/3D our only method for weak minors.

I play 2NT 20-21, 2♣ is either 22-23 BAL or GF (24+ is GF in my book, no splitting hairs with a 1-count opposite).

 

Something that I found interesting is that 2NT as weak with 5-5 (or longer) minors is typically not a great winner. The downsides are:

• The bid is (virtually) forcing, giving LHO two bites at the apple.
  
• The bid is low frequency - 0.45% of all hands (with a 4-10 range), compared to 0.59% for 20-21 (semi)balanced.
  
• You are shouting to the table that the hand is a misfit or the opponents can compete in a major suit, perhaps making game. As an example defence, 'X = 13-15 (semi)bal with tolerance for the majors OR very strong, Unusual over Unusual' works well enough against the bid. Majors still outrank the minors.
  
• With modern aggressive opening tendencies, especially with a reasonable major suit, the bid is even lower frequency in second and third hand.
  

The treatment also has upsides, including:

• If partner has a good minor fit you might be able to get to 5m before they get to 4M.
  
• If you can open the 20-21 balanced hands low, say with a strong 1♣, you get to have better constructive auctions with that hand type.
  

I think playing 2NT as something artificial and weak makes sense in a strong club system, where there are significant gains to opening 1♣ with strong balanced hands. The same goes for other systems where you have an artificial or semi-artificial way to open strong hands at the 1-level. In those systems 2NT is idle, and you may as well add something preemptive (although I think there might be more interesting options than 'weak, both minors'). However, I'm not a fan of moving 20-21 (or 20-22) strong into an artificial 2-level opening, especially not a multi-meaning weak-or-strong bid. That style has worse constructive auctions facing the strong balanced hand, if anything, while also sacrificing effectiveness of the preemptive opening bids. And all that for a 2NT opening that rarely comes up, and doesn't win big when it does.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=sj8765hkqtdt8c854&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2d(multi)3c?]133|200[/hv]

 

I want to compete here and bid 3♥ to say I am happy to play in your suit at the 3 level.

We play X here as 14+

[DavidKok]

3♥, pass or correct seems fine. There is an argument for a bid at the 4-level instead - if partner has 6 weak hearts we will probably survive while the opponents may make a vulnerable minor suit game, and if partner has spades we will always do well to compete to the 4-level. If partner can have a (by inference, lousy) 5-card heart suit we have to be more cautious and only bid 3♥. If that is not your partnership style I think 4♥ has a lot going for it.