This bid keep tricking me

[thepossum]

How do you interpret this bid by North

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj5hqj974dk6ct6&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1hp3d(Invite-%206%2B%20D%209-11%20pts)p]133|200[/hv]

 

It is one of my least favourite bids. Maybe because it is not used correctly or interpreted correctly

 

How do you proceed. Similar problem to that I have with GiB pre-empts perhaps

 

Is it a pre-empt. It's not forcing 13 + (9-11). Do I have guaranteed entries and stops?

 

It causes me repeated problems

 

I always thought jump shifts were Soloway but is that only 2 level jump over 1

[pilowsky]

I interpret that to mean that after you bid 3NT the bots are going to take a lot of club tricks.

[thepossum]

I interpret that to mean that after you bid 3NT the bots are going to take a lot of club tricks.

 

Exactly. When you see the hand though you may be surprised

[thepossum]

I think I have found one reference to them so far. They are called a Useful Jump Shift which I find ironic :)

 

Thinking about possible rebids I have 3S, 4/5D or 3NT? or Pass of course :(

[thepossum]

Yet another very sad tale. Probably my fault again but other Bridge Software bid 2D as GF

 

Is it a different translation of invitational that means Slam invitational? I took it as game invitational

 

In other situations I have responded in different ways and had the Bot jump to slam - I believe if you bid over 3NT it will consider slam

 

But until I work out what it means and all its permutations I have renamed it the useless jump shift

 

5 losers and suit with enough tricks for game opposite an opener???? - and two other very useful features

 

But again I was embarrassed - this time at not being in 6 0r 7 D lets be conservative and just say 6

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|thepossum,~~M56715,~~M56713,~~M56714|md|1SAKJ5HQJ974DK6CT6,ST43HT852D74CQ875,S97HDAQJT8532CA42,SQ862HAK63D9CKJ93|sv|b|rh||ah|Board%207|mb|1H|an|Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20!H;%2011-21%20HCP;%2012-22%20total%20points|mb|P|mb|3D|an|Invite%20--%206+%20!D;%202-%20!H;%203-%20!S;%209-11%20HCP;%20!DQ%20|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|D9|pc|DK|pc|D4|pc|D2|pc|H4|pc|H8|pc|D3|pc|H6|pc|DA|pc|S8|pc|D6|pc|D7|pc|DQ|pc|C9|pc|C6|pc|C8|pc|DJ|pc|S6|pc|H7|pc|H2|pc|DT|pc|C3|pc|H9|pc|S3|pc|D8|pc|H3|pc|HJ|pc|C7|pc|CA|pc|CJ|pc|CT|pc|CQ|pc|S9|pc|S2|pc|SA|pc|S4|pc|SK|pc|ST|pc|S7|pc|SQ|pc|SJ|pc|C5|pc|C2|pc|CK|pc|S5|pc|HT|pc|C4|pc|HK|pc|HQ|pc|H5|pc|D5|pc|HA|]400|300[/hv]

[smerriman]

Pretend for a minute you're not playing with GIB.

 

In standard 2/1, if your partner opens the bidding and you have a weak hand with a long suit that you want to be trumps, you bid a forcing 1NT, then your suit at the lowest level over whatever partner does - virtually always a signoff saying you have no interest in game.

 

Sometimes this sign-off is at the two level - eg 1♠ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♦, weak with long diamonds.

 

But sometimes it has to be at the three level - eg 1♠ - 1N - 2♠ - 3♣, weak with long clubs, or 1♠ - 1N - 2♥ - 3♦, weak with long diamonds.

 

If you have an invitational hand with a long minor, you therefore often have no way of showing it. You can't start with a game forcing 2 over 1, and if you start with 1NT you might be stuck when bidding the suit would show a weak hand (and you're certainly not going to jump to the 4 level when not strong enough to bid game).

 

Therefore it's common to play invitational jump shifts, where jumping straight to the 3 level shows precisely that hand that's impossible to otherwise bid - invitational with a long minor. Opener can pass if a minimum, or bid on to game with extras. Extremely useful when playing with humans.

 

GIB, of course, is a bean counter and has no idea how to properly evaluate hands, so it often makes an invitational bid when it should be forcing to game (it won't game force with 11 HCP even with enough distribution to make up for it). Nothing you can do about that.

[thepossum]

Thx

 

I really was quite in the dark. It could have been a fairly weak hand with long diamonds, dangerous in NT, or one similar above fit for slam :)

[thepossum]

I am doing more reading on the subject but 1M-3m doesn't leave much room for exploring stoppers. Or is there just enough. You bid other major to show stopper and responder decides whether to go minor or NT???? I'm still confused at the different hand variants, especially risks in NT

 

It did have the one excellent stop outside its monster diamonds and void

 

But aren't you in trouble with club lead and offside king

[DavidKok]

Opener is supposed to make a decisive call immediately. The invitational jump shift shows a hand too weak to force to game but too strong to bid via 1NT. When used by humans it shows a concentration of values in a long (6+) minor suit that will serve as a source of tricks, usually in 3NT, approximately 9-11 points and denies support for opener's major (3-card support is right out, some people also exclude Hx). With a non-minimum opener will usually bid 3NT or jump to 4M (with a long strong suit of their own), especially with some support for the minor. You no longer investigate stoppers. A bid in a new major offers responder the opportunity to pick the least bad major game, but you'll often be playing in a 7-card fit. With more than a minimum blasting 3NT is the percentage action. Responder likely has at least one of the two unbid suits stopped, or two half-stoppers combine to make a full one, or the opponents will fail to find the killing lead.

The key insight is that while you might not know whether 3NT is best, partner certainly doesn't know. You could have practically anything on the auction while their hand is narrowly specified. Asking them to weigh in on game choices is mostly a form of torture.

Theoretically other bids should be used for slam tries, but this is up to partnership preference.

 

I have no idea how much of this, if anything at all, works when playing with GIB.

[mw64ahw]

I've been looking at these invitational jump shifts recently and given the 9-11 range I find you need at least 14+hcp to respond or stoppers in all the other suits and a ♦ honour.

Given South has a highly distributional hand and a self-sustaining suit I would not say this was a suitable candidate hand for the IJS. 2♦ appears to be a better bid in these circumstances

[LBengtsson]

That 3♦ bid by North should be in the category of "Worse Bidding Continuation by a Bot". Before I saw North's hand I thought it was Bergen - remember I do not play with the robots. For the bid to be 6♦ 9-11 invitational is just crazy. This is the first time I have seen it described as this in the sequence 1♥ - 3♦. Who decided on this, who programmed this, because imo it is very un-normal?

 

If GIB is just a bean counter (as smerriman said) I would not want it to make my morning coffee :rolleyes:

[smerriman]

For the bid to be 6♦ 9-11 invitational is just crazy. This is the first time I have seen it described as this in the sequence 1♥ - 3♦. Who decided on this, who programmed this, because imo it is very un-normal?

It's part of Bridge World Standard, and the last poll I saw, was a clear favorite for the preferred use of jumps to the 3 level, including recommendations from Larry Cohen, Eric Rodwell, etc. GIB may misuse it, but it's not the convention that's at fault.

[thepossum]

I looked at the traveller

Two possible opening bids - 1NT or 1H - half the field ended in 3NT, a third in 3D, one found 6D and one found 5D - both slam explorations initiated by the Bot after a 1NT opening. IMPs scoring so rather disappointed not to even explore the slam

[LBengtsson]

It's part of Bridge World Standard, and the last poll I saw, was a clear favorite for the preferred use of jumps to the 3 level, including recommendations from Larry Cohen, Eric Rodwell, etc. GIB may misuse it, but it's not the convention that's at fault.

 

Wow! I never knew that. I wonder if Marty Bergen would vote for it now? I suppose it does cater for the a selection of minor-oriented hands that are not in true 2/1 GF territory, but cannot be described accurately using a forcing 1NT after a 1M opening. It might be well-defined but I am not so sure about the amount of bidding space it consumes.

[thepossum]

My problem is that I am still unsure of what to do every time it comes up

I don't know whether to gamble on NT, go to a minor game, pass, explore slam or something else

[DavidKok]

With a minimum (say, 13 or fewer HCP) you usually pass. Note that if you have a minimum with a good major suit (i.e. 6+) you still pass, unless you have the playing strength for 4M.

With an intermediate hand (14-15) you pass with a singleton in partner's suit, go to game with a doubleton in support. If you have Hx or better you are supposed to stretch a little, so even bid game on a 13-count or suitable 12-count.

With a strong hand (good 15 or up) you go to game. You have to use your judgement to decide whether you want to play 4M (keep in mind partner will frequently have a singleton or at best a doubleton in your suit) or 3NT. 5m is a last resort and is usually only an option if you have at least 3-card support and outside shortage, although even then I'm tempted to gamble 3NT frequently.

If you have a really good fit (say, 4(+) card support, outside shortage and 16+ or so) you should investigate slam.

If you have a really strong hand (say, 19+ or so with at least a doubleton support for partner's suit) you may also investigate slam.

 

This is not perfect but shows the basic brackets that you should consider.

[thepossum]

Thx David 😊

 

I will print this out and refer to it next time.

 

PS is that with a human or robot partner?

[DavidKok]

That's with a human partner.

[pescetom]

Wow! I never knew that. I wonder if Marty Bergen would vote for it now? I suppose it does cater for the a selection of minor-oriented hands that are not in true 2/1 GF territory, but cannot be described accurately using a forcing 1NT after a 1M opening. It might be well-defined but I am not so sure about the amount of bidding space it consumes.

How otherwise would you show these (relatively frequent) hands, and what is so terrible about jumping to 3 level holding a sound 6-card minor in a well defined hand?

Some partners here still insist on playing this as a weak jump ("I can only play this minor") but it seems obtuse in comparison IMHO.