1NT vs. 1 of a suit

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa1074h1082dajcakj6&w=sj8h7643dkq65cq32&e=s952hakqj9d984c108&s=skq63h5d10732c9754]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♣-(2♥)- X! - (3♥)

4♠ - All Pass[/hv]

 

North chose to open 1♣ rather than 1NT. South chose the aggressive action of making a negative double rather than passing and NS ended up in the fine contract of 4♠. It turns out it would be rather more difficult if North opened 1NT.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=s9732hj84dkqj83c9&s=sa108hakq6da72c876]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - All Pass[/hv]

 

This time South decided to open 1NT rather than 1♣ and the excellent heart game was missed. If south opened 1♣ a possible auction would be:

 

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - 2♥

4♥

 

Do you find these results typical of the hand evaluation involved or were they just two boards that happened to work out with one view and not another?

[inquiry]

The first hand is a clear cut up evaluation. This hand is much too strong for a standard 1NT (15-17). It has 7 controls!!, good distribution, and AJ and AKJ and AT8x are all pluses. Adding to the value. I would open this 1♣

 

The second hand is a little different. It has the same hcp, with a queen subbed in for two jacks, it has the same remarkable 7 controls. But its distribution is a detriment. This one is a little more of a toss up, but those values are too prime, I guess i would treat this as too good for a 1NT opening as well.

[Guest Jlall]

I would open both 1N. AJ doubleton and Txx are definite minuses. No 5 card suit. Controls are NOT as powerful as people think for high card point NT games, just for suits and trick based NT games (see an old zar post for more on this).

 

I would also open the next hand 1N. 4333. On both hands you will notice one thing, xxx opp x. This is luck. The hands mesh very well, and you end up in a suit contract bringing the big power to the controls. Based on these hands you should never open prime hands with xxx 1N. That would obviously be a silly rule. Sometimes hands mesh well. You can easily find hands where you open 1C and end up in a hopeless 3N game too.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the main difference between both hands is, that

opener holds the spades in the first hand, which makes

it possible for him to open 1C, because he has a safe

rebid, in case responder answers in 1 of a suit.

 

That's about all. There exist a suggestion by Klinger

somewhere, to do this, at least part of the time.

He made this suggestion in an Acol context, but the

reasoning, still holds in a 5 card mayor context.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[SoTired]

I would open both 1N.

Agree.

 

I upgrade hands that have a 5-card suit containing 4-7 hcp. I upgrade hands that have excess 10's and 9's. I upgrade hands that have little wasted strength. I upgrade hands that have excess aces. There is also the "look-and-feel" of the hand (LTC?). Neither of these 2 hands qualify.

 

#1, A10xx 10xx AJ AKJx, although it has 3 aces it has no 5-card suit, the excess 10H is a lone honor, the JD is wasted, and even the JC may be wasted if partner has Qxxx.

 

#2, A10x AKQx Axx xxx, again 3 aces, but no 5-card suit, no excess 10/9, the AKQ is in a 4-card suit, and the hand is 4333.

[whereagles]

I would also open 1NT both hands. The 1NT can cause self-preemption on occasion, but it is a very good opening on the long run.

[pclayton]

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

 

There are some combos where a 15-17 is better and some where a 12-14 is better. Overall, I think a 12-14 is better because of its frequency and because it improves our constructive bidding.

 

I don't think the 1st hand is a super 17 either. The JD is immaterial and the '

JC only slightly improves the odds of a 4S contract. Even if N does open a 15-17 its very likely that S will have the tools to compete in spades once East takes some a call to show those hearts. In fairness, NS probably aren't getting to game without the competition after a 1C opening.

 

The 2nd example seems concocted. Would you really raise to 2H on Jxx? Very fortunate that pard has zero duplication opposite your stiff.

[cherdano]

I would also open the next hand 1N. 4333. On both hands you will notice one thing, xxx opp x. This is luck. The hands mesh very well, and you end up in a suit contract bringing the big power to the controls.

I am sure you don't mean it that way, but "This is luck" sounds like the pair had a lucky auction to this great contract; but of course the NS pair (in the first auction) had good grounds to assume this excellent meshing. South chose to X with subminmal values because of his singleton, and North took the push to game because he had nothing wasted opposite partner's assumed shortness, and great suit play values outside this suit.

 

I was East and didn't feel happy about having pushed them to game, but: wdo!

 

Arend

[MickyB]

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

 

There are some combos where a 15-17 is better and some where a 12-14 is better. Overall, I think a 12-14 is better because of its frequency and because it improves our constructive bidding.

Interesting - I don't consider these an endorsement of 12-14 NT, and I prefer 15-17 because it improves our constructive bidding!

[david_c]

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

Funny you should say that - I played these hands as North at another table, and opened 1♠ on the first hand playing Acol weak NT. We didn't get to game ;)

 

How do you think the auction should continue after 1♠ : (2♥) : 2♠ : (3♥) ?

[MickyB]

I was acol weak NT for both of them as well. The first we bid 1♠:3♠, 4♠ with 3♠ a mixed raise, and I'd suggest the same auction ignoring the 2♥ bid Dave. On the 2nd, we bid 1♥:2♥, 2N:3N :lol: ;) :( Any comments on our auction? I hated my 2NT rebid!

[mr1303]

Playing our strong club system (Dave and Mike, for when we used to play it)

 

The second one is ultra easy to get there.

 

1C (16+) 1D (<5sp)

1NT (17-19) 3S (singleton club)

4H (end)

 

First one

 

1C (16+) (2H) X (take-out)

(4H) 4S end

 

the 4H bid is something that opps just tend to do against us.

 

Playing ghastly weak NT 4 card majors, the first board the N hand is worth a maximal game try double here. So the auction

 

1S (2H) 2S (3H)

X P

 

now it's a question of what you consider the S hand worth. I think that a) the 4th trump, ;) the stiff heart and c) a value in the 10 of diamonds makes it worth an acceptance. It's close though....

[Winstonm]

I would open both 1N. AJ doubleton and Txx are definite minuses.

 

For clarification, what you are saying is that without a 5-card suit, to be too good for 1N not only should the hand hold the requisite controls but also a useful doubleton, i.e. a hand playable in 3 suit contracts - or another way to put it a hand that outgrows its stated range if a fit is discovered.

 

WinstonM

[Guest Jlall]

The jack is just wasted. Kx, Ax, AT, KT, xx are the only "good" doubletons so i guess you can look at it that way. But the main reason AJ is bad is simply the jack could be somewhere else more useful. Consider AJTx Txx Ax AKJx. That is a much better hand.

[david_c]

On the 2nd, we bid 1♥:2♥, 2N:3N :lol: ;) :( Any comments on our auction? I hated my 2NT rebid!

hehehe - we did the same thing! Did you get a spade lead too? :D

[MickyB]

Nope, a top club from AKT bare! My prayer for a blockage or a switch wasn't answered ;)

[Winstonm]

The jack is just wasted. Kx, Ax, AT, KT, xx are the only "good" doubletons so i guess you can look at it that way. But the main reason AJ is bad is simply the jack could be somewhere else more useful. Consider AJTx Txx Ax AKJx. That is a much better hand.

Agreed. I was just wondering whether you felt like a tip-top 17 could be too good regardless of shape if all the cards are working or whether the controls vs. suit issue was the deciding factor. Or perhaps it is somewhat of a combination of both?

 

WinstonM

[Guest Jlall]

My main criteria for determining if a 17 is too good:

 

shape (5 or 6 card suit?)

honor location (are the jacks working, are my points in my long suits or short, etc)

spots (I would upgrade a 4333 if it had enough spots)

[tysen2k]

The first hand takes an average of 9.94 tricks in its best contract and the second hand takes an average of 9.57 tricks.

 

The average number of tricks that balanced hands take by HCP:

 

16 = 9.42

17 = 9.67

18 = 9.89

19 = 10.09

 

So the first hand is worth about 18.3, and the second about 16.6.

 

Tysen

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa1074h1082dajcakj6&w=sj8h7643dkq65cq32&e=s952hakqj9d984c108&s=skq63h5d10732c9754]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♣-(2♥)- X! - (3♥)

4♠ - All Pass[/hv]

 

North chose to open 1♣ rather than 1NT. South chose the aggressive action of making a negative double rather than passing and NS ended up in the fine contract of 4♠. It turns out it would be rather more difficult if North opened 1NT.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=s9732hj84dkqj83c9&s=sa108hakq6da72c876]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - All Pass[/hv]

 

This time South decided to open 1NT rather than 1♣ and the excellent heart game was missed. If south opened 1♣ a possible auction would be:

 

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - 2♥

4♥

 

Do you find these results typical of the hand evaluation involved or were they just two boards that happened to work out with one view and not another?

My NT range is 14 to 16. For the first hand, one primary concern for 1NT opening is that if partner holds 4 spades, some shape and around 7 HCP, he would pass 1NT when 4S may have a good play. So it does have some merrit to open 1C even if you play 15-17 1NT. Actually the same is true for 5-3-3-2 or 3-5-3-2 shape and 17 or good 16. Partner sometimes may hold a good support in your major but not enough HCP to act over 1NT opening. So it's probably better to open 1M with 17 instead of 1NT with these hands. For my NT range, I don't really have this problem. Overally, I feel that 14-16 1NT is probably easier to handle than 15-17 1NTs.

[Winstonm]

Overally, I feel that 14-16 1NT is probably easier to handle than 15-17 1NTs.

 

I like what Rodwell said on this matter. He, too, finds the 14-16 NT most advantageous but only due to the fact that he can increase his balanced hand 1C openings to 17.

 

WinstonM

[fifee]

♠A1074

♥1082

♦AJ

♣AKJ6

 

♠KQ63

♥5

♦10732

♣9754

 

 

I hate to sound like an old fashioned girl but if you try to change your style to fit these obscure cases, then you will fall on your face more times than you succeed.

 

Opener has a 17HCP and a 7 loser hand. Since when does that qualify as better than a 1NT opener? Balanced hands need more points to make them look good to me than unbalanced hands.

 

Added value to NT openers for me are:

*mediocre 5 card suit, add 1/2 point

*decent 5 card suit, add 1 point

*well placed honor cards (protected/and or combined with other honor cards) add 1/2 point

*good middlin cards - lots of 9s and 10s and not too many 2s and 3s - add 1/2 point

 

Can even subtract a 1/2 point here and there for strongly negative features.

 

Back to this hand: For every game you make with this opening hand across from a 5 HCP partner, there will be 10 or more you go set in.

[awm]

There are a lot of possible wins and losses for opening 1NT. I'd venture to say that in a constructive auction, opening 1NT tends to be a loser. But nonetheless a lot of top players are leaning towards opening 1NT as often as possible. The wins/losses for 1NT opening would seem to include:

 

Win: Avoids problem rebids later in the auction. This is more of a systemic thing, but typically if you don't open 1NT with the appropriate hand, you will have trouble finding a call later in the auction.

 

Win: Immediately limits strength and shape. This places partner exceptionally well in a competitive auction, since he knows when to compete, when to double, and when to bid game.

 

Win: You usually get to declare the hand. This is obviously huge for a pro playing with a client, but even in a more equal partnership it is sometimes clear that hands will play better from your side (lots of tenaces).

 

Win: You preempt the opponents. Especially given the methods most people play over strong notrumps, it is often hard for them to bid to a game when we open strong 1NT. Finding the best partscore is also difficult when your bidding starts at the two-level, especially if you use double for penalty (i.e. over weak notrump).

 

Loss: You can miss light games in suit contracts. The two hands given are examples of this, and in general its fairly easy to construct hands where you have a great fit and partner just passes 1NT. Frequency-wise, this tends to be a worse problem with weak notrumps than strong, but it happens pretty much regardless of range.

 

Loss: You sometimes play the wrong partial. This is particularly likely when the right partial is a minor suit fit (with responder holding less than six of the minor of course).

 

Loss: Stopper-finding auctions are sometimes difficult. You can end up in 3NT with two small opposite two small, which is somewhat less likely after a natural suit auction. Of course, you might get lucky and opponents don't find the lead (1NT-3NT is very uninformative bidding) but they do seem to lead these suits more often than not.

 

Loss: You can be doubled for penalties, and 1NT may already be too high. Of course, this is a lot more of an issue with weak notrumps than with strong.

 

Honestly I think the reason more top players are opening 1NT is the second "win" up there -- people are competing more aggressively and its nice to get a pretty accurate depiction of your hand down early in these auctions.