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Acol Daylong - Feedback thread


diana_eva

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The Daylong that just closed

I made 6H on this and wondered if there was a squeeze or advanced play available, am either not good enough or couldn't see it so claimed all but one of the remaining 5 tricks

I did wonder how a couple of tables made 7, checked DD. Here is one of the (anonymised) beneficiaries - or expert exponents should I say

 

Apparently there was a unique squeeze available. You need to wait to the penultimate discard. I am still looking hard just in case I can see a menace that I missed - always play to the last trick at MPs

 

Was it Argine that made the 7 bid, which looks senseless given that partner has denied a spades control and may well lack one in diamonds too?

I may be wrong but don't see any squeeze available.

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Was it Argine that made the 7 bid, which looks senseless given that partner has denied a spades control and may well lack one in diamonds too?

I may be wrong but don't see any squeeze available.

 

It's a joke squeeze

 

Did you follow the hand - there is one - a couple of people knew it was there

 

I only bid and made 6, because I didn't know there was a squeeze available and stupidly conceded a trick to the West bot

 

The whole thing has thrown me into so much doubt I still think I must have missed something

 

Maybe I have to start thinking like a young child hanging onto their winner to the very end

 

And sadly it had to throw one away - trick 11, sorry I should have set up the hand to start with the fun - but I keep replaying it from the beginning to get the full joy. It had been doing well. East was covering spades, west was covering diamonds and had another winner just in case

 

I thought one major advantage bots have over humans is perfect memory of the cards

Sadly it had not been counting trumps, clubs or anything much

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The bad news is that I overlooked the marked finesse which gives me a very simple 13 tricks (unless ♠Q is a falsecard but I wouldn't expect a robot to come up with that).

 

The other bad news is that the squeeze doesn't work.

 

The good news is that the pseudo compound squeeze works when E discards a heart in trick 11, thereby trapping its partner in a red suit squeeze.

 

I just wonder - doesn't Argine play count signals so that E should have a complete count?

 

Something else - 5NT is explained as "choice of slam", showing 1+ in each suit. Hopefully the real meaning of 5NT is a bit more specific.

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My 3 bid is an underbid according to the hover info, so I thought we should be in the slam zone opposite partner's forcing 4 bid.

 

Probably I am in the wrong also by not simply asking for keycards as I have all controls. But the 4 bid is not only an overbid by two HCPs (not even taking into account that is is a very quacky hand), it is also illogical because the hand should have no slam interest opposite my limited 3 bid.

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The 4 bid has a very wide range. I think that with a minimum it would have passed 3 but on the other hand, with invitational+ values it should have taken action over 3 so I wasn't sure. Maybe the actual hand is the type of hands that can reasonably bid like this if it couldn't act over 3 without forcing to game.

 

Anyway, I guess my point just is that 4-14 points is too wide a range.

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Another 6ntx-12. I suppose I could have limited it to 11 down.

 

Apart from bidding slam without slam values after they have doubled us in game and choosing nt without a stopper in their 10card fit and asking for Kings with two kc's missing, there's also the issue that and overcall over a preempt has a range of 7 to 17.

https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot,helene_t,~~v3fakebot|md|3SJ8HAKQ754DTCAQ72,SAKQ96H82DKJ932C3,S532HT3DQCKT98654,ST74HJ96DA87654CJ|sv|o|rh||ah|Board%201|mb|P|mb|2D|an|1+!C;%206!D;%20HCP%205-10;%20weak%20hand|mb|2H|an|5+!H;%20HCP%207-17;%20natural|mb|4D|an|3+!D;%20HCP%20No%20indication;%20fit%20in%20!D%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|P|mb|4H|an|6+!H;%20HCP%207-17;%20natural|mb|D|an|3+!D;%205!H;%20HCP%2012+;%20penalty|mb|4N!|an|2+!H;%20HCP%2011-;%20RKCB%20in%20!H%20(!H%20King%20is%20a%20keycard)%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|5D!|an|6+!H;%20HCP%207-17;%200%20or%203%20key%20card(s)%20-%20Forcing|mb|D!|an|3+!D;%205!H;%20HCP%2012+;%20lead%20directing|mb|5N!|an|2+!H;%20HCP%2011-;%20Blackwood,%20asks%20how%20many%20Kings%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|6D!|an|6+!H;%20HCP%207-17;%200%20or%203%20King(s)%20and%20not%20counting%20King%20of%20trumps%20-%20Forcing|mb|D!|an|3+!D;%205!H;%20HCP%2012+;%20lead%20directing|mb|6N|an|2+!H;%20HCP%2011;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|DA|pc|DT|pc|D2|pc|DQ|pc|D4|mc|0|

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[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|pilowsky,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot|md|4SAKQ9872HJD965CK4,SHQ7652D874CAQJ73,SJT65HAT94DQT2C62,S43HK83DAKJ3CT985|sv|n|rh||ah|Board%202|mb|P|mb|4S|an|7-9!S;%20HCP%205-10;%20preemptive|mb|4N!|an|HCP%2012+;%20two-suiter%20with%20!C/!D%20or%20two-suiter%20with%20!C/!H%20or%20two-suiter%20with%20!D/!H%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|5C|an|HCP%2011-;%20no%20preference|mb|P|mb|5N!|an|HCP%2012+;%20Blackwood,%20asks%20how%20many%20Kings%20-%20Forcing|mb|P|mb|6H!|an|HCP%2011-;%202%20King(s)%20and%20no%20Queen%20of%20trumps%20and%20not%20counting%20King%20of%20trumps%20-%20Non%20forcing|mb|D|an|7-9!S;%20HCP%205-10;%20penalty|mb|6N|an|HCP%2018+;%20to%20play|mb|P|mb|P|mb|D|an|7-9!S;%20HCP%205-10;%20penalty|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|SJ|pc|S3|pc|SA|pc|D4|pc|S2|pc|H2|pc|S5|pc|S4|pc|S6|pc|C5|pc|SK|pc|D7|pc|SQ|pc|H5|pc|ST|pc|C8|pc|S9|pc|H6|pc|H4|pc|C9|pc|S8|pc|H7|pc|H9|pc|H3|pc|S7|pc|C3|pc|C2|pc|H8|pc|HJ|pc|HQ|pc|HA|pc|HK|pc|HT|pc|D3|pc|D5|pc|D8|pc|C6|pc|CT|pc|CK|pc|CA|pc|C7|pc|D2|pc|DJ|pc|C4|pc|CJ|pc|DT|pc|DK|pc|D6|pc|CQ|pc|DQ|pc|DA|pc|D9|]400|300|

And here we get to see a fish trying to ride a bicycle.[/hv]

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[hv=handviewer.html?nn=Argine&n=SQHA95DAT6532CQ96&d=w&a=p1d(4+!d; HCP 11-23; 4-card !d opener)P1S(4+!S; HCP 4+; natural - Forcing)P2D(5+!D; HCP 11-16; unbalanced)P3H(4+!D; 4+!S; HCP 13+; Splinter, shortness in this suit and big fit in last suit bid - Game forcing)P4H(5+!D; 3-4!H; HCP 11-15; to play)]450|200[/hv]

Robots just can't get splinters right, can they?

 

Admittedly, this may be yet another case of the logic not matching up with the description, given 4 seems a reasonable bid otherwise.

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This penalty double was actually spot on (I made 5 but that was due to a misdefense, and 4 is down also). But seriously, what kind of penalty double is this? After I have supported diamonds and opps apear to have wild distributions, North can count zero defensive tricks.

 

My impression is that Argine actually plays "card" showing doubles in such situations, not penalty, which is fine but then it should be explained as such.

 

I am also curious why North bid 1 in the first place. If North is too weak for a splinter, maybe just make a limit raise? 1 is a good bid with that concentration of honours, I am just curious what the reason was for the robot to make that bid.

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This penalty double was actually spot on (I made 5 but that was due to a misdefense, and 4 is down also). But seriously, what kind of penalty double is this? After I have supported diamonds and opps apear to have wild distributions, North can count zero defensive tricks.

 

I am also curious why North bid 1 in the first place. If North is too weak for a splinter, maybe just make a limit raise? 1 is a good bid with that concentration of honours, I am just curious what the reason was for the robot to make that bid.

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|helene_t,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot|md|1S6HKJTD8642CAKQJ8,SQJ432HAQ9DT75C62,S8H843DAKQ9C97543,SAKT975H7652DJ3CT|sv|b|rh||ah|Board%207|mb|1C|an|4+!C;%20HCP%2011-23;%20natural|mb|P|mb|1D|an|1+!D;%20HCP%204+;%20natural%20or%20fit%20in%20!C%20-%20Forcing|mb|1S|an|5+!S;%20HCP%208-17;%20natural|mb|2D|mb|4S|an|4+!S;%20HCP%203-15;%20fit|mb|D|an|1+!D;%20HCP%204+;%20penalty|mb|P|mb|5C|an|6+!C;%204-5!D;%20HCP%2011-16;%20natural|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|SQ|pc|S8|pc|S9|pc|S6|pc|HA|pc|H3|pc|H2|pc|HT|pc|S3|pc|H4|pc|SK|pc|C8|pc|CA|pc|C2|pc|C3|pc|CT|pc|CK|pc|C6|pc|C4|pc|S5|pc|D2|pc|D5|pc|DA|pc|D3|pc|DK|pc|DJ|pc|D4|pc|D7|mc|11|]400|300|

Just to make it easier to see...[/hv]

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If at first you don't succeed..

 

a) Cue, cue again

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S54HA73DAJ6CKQT94%2CSKJHKQ842DQT53C87%2CSAQ986HJ65DK974C6%2CST732HT9D82CAJ532%7Csv%7C0%7Cah%7CBoard%201%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7C4%2B%21C%3B%20HCP%2011-23%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7C1H%7Can%7C5%2B%21H%3B%20HCP%208-17%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7C1S%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%205-11%3B%20at%20least%205%21S%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Can%7CHCP%209-%3B%20weak%20hand%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202-3%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20balanced%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C2H%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2010-11%3B%20cue-bid%2C%20strong%2C%20or%20no%20natural%20bid%20available%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C2N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20denies%203%21S%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3H%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2010-11%3B%20cue-bid%2C%20strong%2C%20or%20no%20natural%20bid%20available%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20game%2C%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CS8%7C]400|300[/hv]

Despite having already shown 5 spades, the first cue made some sense, I guess, if checkback is off for some reason, but I have no idea what Argine was angling for with the second.

 

b) NT, NT again

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=st%7C%7Cmd%7C3SAKQT9652HA962DQC%2CS84HJ7DAK43C97632%2CSJHT83DT9876CKQ54%2CS73HKQ54DJ52CAJT8%7Csv%7CN%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7C4%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2011-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7CHCP%206-9%3B%20balanced%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%204%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20jump%20two-suiter%20-%20Game%20forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7CHCP%206-9%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%205%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CHCP%206-7%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C6S%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%206%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C6N%7Can%7CHCP%207%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CD%7Can%7CHCP%2017-%3B%20lead-directing%2C%20usually%20dummy%27s%20first%20suit%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CH9%7C]400|300[/hv]

A natural 4NT can't be described as anything other than a partnership-ending bid. I 'rage-quit' with 6, but even that didn't get the message across.

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If at first you don't succeed..

 

a) Cue, cue again

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S54HA73DAJ6CKQT94%2CSKJHKQ842DQT53C87%2CSAQ986HJ65DK974C6%2CST732HT9D82CAJ532%7Csv%7C0%7Cah%7CBoard%201%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7C4%2B%21C%3B%20HCP%2011-23%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7C1H%7Can%7C5%2B%21H%3B%20HCP%208-17%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7C1S%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%205-11%3B%20at%20least%205%21S%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Can%7CHCP%209-%3B%20weak%20hand%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202-3%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20balanced%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C2H%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2010-11%3B%20cue-bid%2C%20strong%2C%20or%20no%20natural%20bid%20available%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C2N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20denies%203%21S%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3H%21%7Can%7C5%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2010-11%3B%20cue-bid%2C%20strong%2C%20or%20no%20natural%20bid%20available%20-%20Forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7C4-5%21C%3B%202%2B%21D%3B%202-4%21H%3B%202%21S%3B%20HCP%2015-17%3B%20game%2C%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CS8%7C]400|300[/hv]

Despite having already shown 5 spades, the first cue made some sense, I guess, if checkback is off for some reason, but I have no idea what Argine was angling for with the second.

 

b) NT, NT again

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=st%7C%7Cmd%7C3SAKQT9652HA962DQC%2CS84HJ7DAK43C97632%2CSJHT83DT9876CKQ54%2CS73HKQ54DJ52CAJT8%7Csv%7CN%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7C4%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2011-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7CHCP%206-9%3B%20balanced%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%204%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20jump%20two-suiter%20-%20Game%20forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7CHCP%206-9%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%205%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CHCP%206-7%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C6S%7Can%7C4-6%21H%3B%206%2B%21S%3B%20HCP%2017-20%3B%20natural%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C6N%7Can%7CHCP%207%3B%20to%20play%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CD%7Can%7CHCP%2017-%3B%20lead-directing%2C%20usually%20dummy%27s%20first%20suit%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CH9%7C]400|300[/hv]

A natural 4NT can't be described as anything other than a partnership-ending bid. I 'rage-quit' with 6, but even that didn't get the message across.

But at least he arrived at 7 HCP (even if he didn't have them, and was bashful about who had suggested a diamonds stopper).

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Argine is completely broken after the simple sequence 1 - 2.

 

I held AQTxx-Axx-xx-AJx.

 

2NT is 15-19 game forcing with exactly 2 hearts.

3 shows 11-13 with 3+.

4 shows 11-14 with 4+.

3NT is 15-16 with exactly 2 hearts.

 

2 shows 5+, 11-20, natural, forcing, so I elected to bid that hoping heart followups would show extra strength.

 

Nope, after Argine continued with 2NT (natural, invitational), 3 showed exactly 2 hearts, 11-13, while 4 was exactly 2 hearts, 11-20, "preference for this suit".

 

I tried the latter anyway, but then Argine went on its usual route of bidding 4NT / 5NT / 6NT, described as Blackwood but intended to sign off in notrumps at each level with an 11 count.

 

What's the normal Acol solution here?

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As the Free Acol Daylong experiment has been spawning quite a few threads, here's an official feedback thread.

 

Please post comments about the free acol daylong and the robots used in it (Argine).

 

Same as with GIB reports, it helps to include the actual hand, or at least mention the board number and the daylong date.

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This sequence came up today and 2 was described as:

4-6; 5+; HCP 9+; 3rd suit forcing; looking for stopper, can have fit and at least 4 - Forcing.

[hv=d=e&v=e&b=6&a=1cp1sp2cp2h(3rd%20suit%20forcing)]133|100[/hv]

 

Not being familiar with 3SF I looked it up and found a Funbridge blogpost which seemed likely to be authoritative given it's Argine.

The title of the post was "The truth about the subject of third suit forcing" suggesting that it was not a lie.

 

The post stated that "The next three sequences use a third suit that is outside the box that defines a third suit forcing:"

The second of these auctions is the one shown above. This is described as "Without going into detail (this is not the topic of the day), these third suits have a tendency of being natural:"

 

Any thoughts?

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Not being familiar with 3SF I looked it up and found a Funbridge blogpost which seemed likely to be authoritative given it's Argine.

The title of the post was "The truth about the subject of third suit forcing" suggesting that it was not a lie.

 

The post stated that "The next three sequences use a third suit that is outside the box that defines a third suit forcing:"

The second of these auctions is the one shown above. This is described as "Without going into detail (this is not the topic of the day), these third suits have a tendency of being natural:"

 

Any thoughts?

My only thought is that this would be forcing in any natural system I have played, even without giving it a fancy name. In this particular sequence, Opener has not excluded 4 card hearts and so Responder would do well to promise the same, as Argine does here.

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https://tinyurl.com/2h6vsy2t

 

So the auction goes

(1)-p-(1NT)-p

(2)-x-(xx)-p

(p)-3-(p)-3NT

(x)-a.p.

 

-1100

 

Whether East's pass after the redouble is penalty or scrambling is a different issue (personally I think it should be penalty but East's hand is more consistent with scrambling), but it shouldn't matter here as West's 3 bid shouldn't show values regardless.

 

3 was explained as 8-17 points, and then E just has to pass as W will rarely have something close to 17. I am not sure why E bid 3NT.

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[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|helene_t,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot,~~v3fakebot|md|1SJ9854H6DAQJT6CA6,SQ7HKQJ2D75CK8742,SA3H98743DK42CQ95,SKT62HAT5D983CJT3|sv|e|rh||ah|Board%203|mb|1S|an|4+!S;%20HCP%2011-20;%20natural|mb|P|mb|1N|an|HCP%206-9;%20balanced|mb|P|mb|2D|an|3+!D;%205+!S;%20HCP%2011-18;%20at%20least%204!D%20or%20at%20least%203!D%20and%20balanced%20and%2015-17|mb|D!|an|4+!C;%204!H;%20HCP%208-17;%20take-out%20-%20Non%20forcing|mb|R!|an|HCP%209;%20extra%20strength,%20at%20least%209%20points%20-%20Non%20forcing|mb|P|mb|P|mb|3C|an|4+!C;%204!H;%20HCP%208-17;%20natural|mb|P|mb|3N|an|1+!C;%201+!D;%201+!H;%202+!S;%20HCP%2015-;%20game,%20to%20play|mb|D|an|3+!D;%205+!S;%20HCP%2012-18;%20penalty|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|DA|pc|D5|pc|D2|pc|D3|pc|DQ|pc|D7|pc|D4|pc|D9|pc|DJ|pc|C2|pc|DK|pc|D8|pc|C9|pc|C3|pc|CA|pc|C4|pc|DT|pc|C7|pc|H9|pc|H5|pc|D6|pc|S7|pc|H3|pc|CT|pc|C6|pc|CK|pc|C5|pc|CJ|pc|C8|pc|CQ|pc|S2|pc|S4|pc|SA|pc|S6|pc|S5|pc|SQ|pc|S3|pc|SK|pc|S8|pc|H2|pc|HA|pc|H6|pc|HJ|pc|H4|pc|HT|pc|S9|pc|HQ|pc|H7|pc|HK|pc|H8|pc|ST|pc|SJ|]400|300| just so we can see it...[/hv]

 

So the auction goes

(1)-p-(1NT)-p

(2)-x-(xx)-p

(p)-3-(p)-3NT

(x)-a.p.

 

-1100

 

Whether East's pass after the redouble is penalty or scrambling is a different issue (personally I think it should be penalty but East's hand is more consistent with scrambling), but it shouldn't matter here as West's 3 bid shouldn't show values regardless.

 

3 was explained as 8-17 points, and then E just has to pass as W will rarely have something close to 17. I am not sure why E bid 3NT.

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