What happened in Tenerife?

[doofik]

I think that the big issue is who will sponsor them now? Are they willing to invest in themselves to play?

 

doofik

[mike777]

I think that the big issue is who will sponsor them now?  Are they willing to invest in themselves to play?

 

doofik

Strongly disagree. I do not think this is the big issue.

 

Here is a bigger one.

 

99%+ of us have never read the bridge laws or if we did remember or fully understand them?

How many of us break the laws and what is bridge going to do about it?

How can we say we do not break the law when the vast majority of us do not know all the laws? We are simply guessing and hoping.

 

This reminds me of all the people who say they are great drivers who never break the law and they have no idea what 50% of the law is. How the heck can we be so certain when we do not even know the laws.

 

See full disclosure or telling the opp our implicit partnership agreements as one never ending issue.

[doofik]

And I think that this broad approach to the topic at hand doesn't really do it much good B) If I'll tell you that I disclose all I know about a bid, you'll come back at nuances. This will lead to nowhere land :)

 

I do know laws as they apply to drivers, so what?

 

doofik

[mike777]

And I think that this broad approach to the topic at hand doesn't really do it much good :)   If I'll tell you that I disclose all I know about a bid, you'll come back at nuances.  This will lead to nowhere land :)

 

I do know laws as they apply to drivers, so what?

 

doofik

Well I would bet my house you do not fully know all the driving laws and fully understand them.B) Who the heck does? There must be a thousand and one of them with many nuances.

Same thing for bridge, hard to fully follow all the laws when 99.9% of the 25 million bridge players do not fully know and understand them. Me included.

 

See law 40D and 40A just for starters :)

 

My tiny point is only there are big issues and then there is life :).

We all break the law and are guilty or at least make a conscious decision to remain ignorant.

[luke warm]

you might be right, mike, but i'll bet that even if a person knows *none* of the laws of duplicate bridge they know not to look into an opp's hand and signal partner what's held

[han]

Agree with Mr Warm. We may not know all the bridge laws, but we all know that dummy is not allowed to signal partner how many diamonds the opponents have.

[keylime]

Ditto.

[Echognome]

From Andrew Robson's column in The Times from the 23rd of July.

 

It is telling that the evidence of just one opponent should have sufficed; and telling that thenews of their disqualification was met with cheering and not one "It's outrageous that they should be incriminated on such flimsy evidence." For many have felt that they have been up to no good previously, with judiciously timed coughs being their specialty.

[doofik]

Thank you Echo.

[Fluffy]

Will they EVER be allowed to play together AGAIN for any country or sponsor?

 

I don't think anyone knows.

I can't be sure, but I've heard there was a serious proposal that they would not play anymore in 2 years, and after that, they would never ever play again together.

[mike777]

I see no one, repeat no one, said they agree strongly with me.

 

I disagree strongly.

 

The "big issue" in bridge is not tap tap tap 3 times on arm to cheat at bridge.

The "big issue" is not will B&L play again.

 

I just played a hand against an expert opp who did not alert gambling 3nt on BBO.

 

I repeat, almost no one (99.9%) seems to know and understand all basic rules of bridge, ACBL or WBF. Yes, we know many of the rules but not some of the basic ones. 99.9% of us have access to the rules but we seem to go out of our way to not read and understand the rules or choose to be ignorant of them.

 

Just as 99.9% of us choose to not read or fully understand or ignore one or more of the safety, environmental, or other of our vehicle/driving rules.

 

Perhaps one of the great mysteries of life is how the heck more of us are not killed on the road of cars/life ;).

 

I still think this is the "big issue". "Blades of Grass" Walt W. poem.

[guggie]

But do you seriously mean that you were fooled by the non-alert? Did you expect anybody, let alone an expert, to open a "natural" 3NT?

The goal of traffic rules is to prevent accidents. It needs the cooperation of the traffic users and some laws to achieve it. If you forget something trivial, like putting omn your signal before driving into yr own parking place, and it leads to no harm, nobody will fine you

The goal of alerting in bridge is to attent opps to unexpected meanings of bids. This real goal has to be translated into various laws. If the violating of these laws leads to serious damage of the opponents, the violators should be punished.

A gambling 3NT with a forgotten -routine - alarm does not lead to any damage.

lets play bridge and not play rules.

 

(Yes I know rules are necessary and I try to follow them)

[kense]

From Andrew Robson's column in The Times from the 23rd of July.

 

It is telling that the evidence of just one opponent should have sufficed; and telling that thenews of their disqualification was met with cheering and not one "It's outrageous that they should be incriminated on such flimsy evidence." For many have felt that they have been up to no good previously, with judiciously timed coughs being their specialty.

I have heard that also, the coughing at various times was most prominant in the Cavendish..

[Al_U_Card]

Wow, I have spent 2 hours reading this thread and I have only 2 words to offer.....sodium pentathol. :angry:

[luke warm]

I see no one, repeat no one, said they agree strongly with me.

 

I disagree strongly.

 

The "big issue" in bridge is not tap tap tap 3 times on arm to cheat at bridge.

The "big issue" is not will B&L play again.

 

I just played a hand against an expert opp who did not alert gambling 3nt on BBO.

 

I repeat, almost no one (99.9%) seems to know and understand all basic rules of bridge, ACBL or WBF. Yes, we know many of the rules but not some of the basic ones. 99.9% of us have access to the rules but we seem to go out of our way to not read and understand the rules or choose to be ignorant of them.

 

Just as 99.9% of us choose to not read or fully understand or ignore one or more of the safety, environmental, or other of our vehicle/driving rules.

but mike, i think you're talking about a different subject.. your expert who failed to alert 3nt, do you think he was purposely cheating?... those of us who don't know all the rules of bridge, when we inadvertantly break one are we cheating?

 

to me there's a big difference between purposely breaking a law, to gain advantage, and doing so out of ignorance... yes, ignorance of the law is no excuse... however, if i break a law thru ignorance, only a total dork would call me a cheater

[pclayton]

News update from ATL:

 

Played against a District Director in the GNT's who told me that while they couldn't do anything official, that BL were strongly discouraged not to come. Huh? What?

 

On a more positive note, the board is Finally getting their act together re: the GNT's. Next year a pair from Texas was planning to play with a sponsor from MA in District 17 (Vegas). They've had enough with the "well I keep an apartment there" excuse. It met with a lot of opposition, but the alternative was trashing the event altogether. Bravo!

[keylime]

I mentioned the GNT situation on my latest podcast - any listing of the Board agenda there?

[pclayton]

Just a brief note in the Friday or Saturday bulletin I think. The meeting minutes will have more.

[kense]

Just a brief note in the Friday or Saturday bulletin I think. The meeting minutes will have more.

What has this got to do with B-L???

I thought this thread about The Italians not Amrican GNT's?? Am I missing something?

[mike777]

I see in today's ACBL Bulletin that live camera feeds with the images recorded for review are now being used in the top events. No further details were given.

 

http://web2.acbl.org/nabcbulletins/2005summer/db9.pdf

[mike777]

Long article in Southern California Bridge News, August 2005, by District Director Alan LaBendig.

 

He is the Western USA zone rep on the ACBL Executive Committee. This is the 5 member ACBL governing group that meets only for emergencies between board meetings.

 

Long article but here is a quick summary.

1) B&L are members of the ACBL

2) Executive Committee filed charges of "cheating"

3) Case to be heard in Denver in Late November by Ethical Oversight Committee.

4) Chairmen of the Ethical Oversight Committee have suspended them until charges can be heard.

5) Bared from all ACBL events until hearing.

6) Pair was under "much suspicion in the past".

[doofik]

So we seem to hear everything except evidence. Is it possible that all world class pairs have a taint on them because they really play extremely well, and now any of us can approach a TD and have them barred until a hearing with zero evidence? Just because they make an anti-percentage play? Or make a play that the members of the committee will not like? Is that what I'm hearing here? And if there was evidence, why are we still guessing?

 

The fact that B-L appear to be universally disliked does not give anyone the right to ban them on anyone's say-so. Yes, there are whispers everywhere how dishonest they are (I don't know them so all I'm doing is repeating) but what if those same whispers start against other world class pairs? And where is proof? I've heard one of the best descriptions ever about B-L from a world class player "they cheat, we all know they cheat, but they do it in such a ingenious way that no one can figure out how". But what if such a accusation will be attached to Zia, to Fred, to Balicki, the list is long and distinguished. How are the players supposed to defend themselves? By behaving the way the committee would like to see them behave?

 

The danger is that our beloved game will become a paranoiac arena. I don't think this is going to be conducive to the growth or popularity of our sport.

 

doofik

[Winstonm]

Vince Bugliosi, the man who successfully prosecuted the case against Charles Manson and had years of success for the county of Los Angeles, said in one of his books that defense attorneys tried to discredit circumstantial evidence as being like a chain - that if one link is broken the chain is broken. But Bugliosi would tell the jurors that this was not so, that circumstantial evidence was like a rope - if one small strand broke, it didn't affect the rope - the rope was still strong.

 

There are very few serious allegations of cheating in top level bridge; when they are made, it is not because of one isolated hand but because there has been a pattern of oddities - sometimes years of suspicions without concrete proof. On one hand the opponents coughed after the auction and his partner made a perculiar lead; on another hand, as the auction ended, one of these same two blew his nose, and suddenly another anti-percentage play was made. When you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, the guilty parties must be given enough time to create, strand by strand, the very rope by which they are hanged.

 

If you keep twisting together enough pieces of twine, you find that logic defies a rational explanation for the rope having been created, although any one instance may be explained away.

 

A coin flip is a straight 50/50 shot, heads or tails. If after a few years of betting on the outcome you find yourself losing 90% of the times when the coin tosser coughed, sneezed, or pulled out a hanky, you would know without a doubt that you had been had.

 

Perhaps the WBO and the ACBL should hire Mr. Bugliosi, if he's still around, to prove the case.

[doofik]

To Mike777,

 

The camera announcement was made in the bulletin at Pittsburgh Nationals also. Not sure about the previous NAC.

 

doofik

[Fluffy]

News update from ATL:

 

Played against a District Director in the GNT's who told me that while they couldn't do anything official, that BL were strongly discouraged not to come. Huh? What?

They were also strongly discouraged from the EBL to play for Spain on that European bridge championship, but they were paid to, and they finished 2nd. WBF didn't let them play Bermuda Bowl.