4th suit forcing

[thorvald]

Now Stephen Merriman have mentioned multiple times that GIB is having difficulties with responders second bid with 12 HCP, as 4th suit forcing requires 13 HCP, but it seems that there is a sequence where that is not right

 

 

[hv=url=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=pn%7CThorvald%2CRobot%2CRobot%2CRobot%7Cst%7C%7Cmd%7C4SAJHA742D874CKT53%2CSQ865HQDAT63C8642%2CST7HKT3DKQJ95CQJ7%2CSK9432HJ9865D2CA9%7Csv%7CE%7Cah%7CBoard%206%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20%21C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1D%7Can%7COne%20over%20one%20--%204%2B%20%21D%3B%206%2B%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1H%7Can%7C3%2B%20%21C%3B%204%2B%20%21H%3B%2011%2B%20HCP%3B%2012-18%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1S%21%7Can%7CFourth%20suit%20forcing%20--%204%2B%20%21D%3B%203-%20%21S%3B%2012%2B%20HCP%3B%2013%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7C3%2B%20%21C%3B%204%2B%20%21H%3B%202-3%20%21S%3B%2011-14%20HCP%3B%2012%2B%20total%20points%3B%20partial%20stop%20in%20%21S%3B%20forcing%20to%203N%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C2H%7Can%7C4%2B%20%21D%3B%204%2B%20%21H%3B%203-%20%21S%3B%2012%2B%20HCP%3B%2013%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4H%7Can%7C3%2B%20%21C%3B%204%2B%20%21H%3B%202-3%20%21S%3B%2011%2B%20HCP%3B%2012-14%20total%20points%3B%20partial%20stop%20in%20%21S%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CDQ%7C]399|300[/hv]

 

Here only 12 HCP is needed

 

Unfortunately the Bot had placed one of the ♦s among the ♥s, so once again we found a terrible contract

[HardVector]

I don't know about GIB, but I have never played the sequence of 1c-1d-1h-1s as being Gf or even showing extra values. I like the sequence and I think it shows exactly the hand that was shown, 3 hearts, inv values, and questions in the spades suit. With 4 hearts, you would have heard a raise after 1h.

[pescetom]

I don't know about GIB, but I have never played the sequence of 1c-1d-1h-1s as being Gf or even showing extra values. I like the sequence and I think it shows exactly the hand that was shown, 3 hearts, inv values, and questions in the spades suit. With 4 hearts, you would have heard a raise after 1h.

I agree that 1♤ should be forcing but not to game (2♤ is available for that, if really necessary).

Part of the problem is playing Better Minor rather than a short club: if a 1♧ opening is 2+ and 1◇ opening is 4+, then after 1♧ 1◇ 1♡ you can play that 1♤ is a natural force with 4 spades and 2♧ is a force without 4 spades.

Another part is not playing XYZ, which is more versatile than semi-natural bidding or 4SGF used as a crutch.

 

But of course none of this can justify Gib's mistake in a straight forward situation given the agreements in place.

[smerriman]

You misquoted me again. I said 12 total points; GIB has 13.

 

The parts you should have quoted were all the ones where I said don't play with the free bots, because there are a huge number of situations in the bidding database where there are (sometimes intentionally) small gaps that the advanced robots are designed to fill in.

 

Like the basic robot needing 13 total points to bid 4SF, but 13 HCP to have enough for 3NT. The advanced robot has no such problem, and raises your no trump bid.

 

So once more, the mistake was playing with the version of GIB which has most of its logic turned off, rather than GIB itself.

[pilowsky]

GIB plays all FSF as forcing to game including 1/1/1/1.

It's in the system notes.

In my (limited) experience GIB will not bid diamonds over clubs if it has a 4CM - unless it has something like AKQxxx - and even then...

I'm guessing the successful Souths bid 3NT and not 4H.

[thepossum]

One of my least favourite conventions. Usually I come across it when I want to show a 4th suit

[pescetom]

One of my least favourite conventions. Usually I come across it when I want to show a 4th suit

Terence Reese despised 4sf to game and called it "that pitiful crutch" :)

I think it's fine and even a "natural convention" when there really is no natural bid left that forces to game, but that is not the case here.

[mycroft]

Of course it's a crutch. And of course it's pitiful. But when you can no longer use the older, more reliable methods of "forcing to game" versus "making an invitational call", you kind of need a crutch.

 

(And yes, I know the assistance Reese is known for has nothing to do with OBM. But still.)