missed reverse?

[sjn007]

I had as EAST: A 9 3 2 of spades; A K 10 5 4 hearts; A 5 2 diamonds; Q clubs

P had as WEST: 6 5 spades; Q 6 hearts; J 9 7 diamonds; A 10 6 5 4 2 clubs

So I had 17 hcps and p18 when length considered.

P had 6hcps and p8 when length was considered.

We have been playing reverses for 3 weeks or so.

 

In the bidding: dealer was N: PASS 1Heart PASS 1NT / PASS 2Spades PASS 2NT / PASS 3NT PASS PASS / PASS

 

 

 

 

Should I have left the bidding @ 2NT because of my unsupported club Q? We had p26 strength.

[akwoo]

There is a long post followed by a long thread on bidding after reverses:

 

https://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/18177-a-primer-on-reverse-bidding/

 

The problem is that the scheme suggested there might be too complicated for you.

[smerriman]

There is a long post followed by a long thread on bidding after reverses:

 

https://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/18177-a-primer-on-reverse-bidding/

 

The problem is that the scheme suggested there might be too complicated for you.

Actually, the bigger problem is that the thread there, while excellent in itself, skips over reverses after a 1NT response entirely, and they're actually quite different from reverses after 1 of a suit. I haven't seen any definitive coverage of the 1NT case anywhere.

 

The answer to this specific case will also depend on what 1NT means (forcing or weak). With a known lack of a spade fit, and a mainly wasted queen of clubs, I don't think I would reverse on this hand. But it's still worth defining what responder's continuations mean.

[akwoo]

Actually, the bigger problem is that the thread there, while excellent in itself, skips over reverses after a 1NT response entirely, and they're actually quite different from reverses after 1 of a suit. I haven't seen any definitive coverage of the 1NT case anywhere.

 

The answer to this specific case will also depend on what 1NT means (forcing or weak). With a known lack of a spade fit, and a mainly wasted queen of clubs, I don't think I would reverse on this hand. But it's still worth defining what responder's continuations mean.

 

For simplicity, I think responder's continuations should mean the same thing.

[blackshoe]

[hv=pc=n&w=s65hq6dj97cat6542&e=sa932hakt54da52cq&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p1hp1np2sp]266|200[/hv]

The first thing is to agree with partner that the reverse is forcing. Pass is not an option. Absent further agreement on methods it would seem West's options are 2NT, 3♣, and perhaps 3♥. None of these would be forcing. Which is the least evil given West's hand and what East has shown (which should be something like 4=5=(2-2), 4=5=(3-1) or (more rarely) 4=5=(0-4) and 17 or more HCP?

 

3♥ would show pretty much what West has for shape, but has the disadvantage of forcing the pair to at least the three level, and possibly higher given that East doesn't know whether West has a heart fit (i.e., 3 or more hearts) or what his strength is (is game possible or not?) 3♣ would show again show pretty much what West has for shape, and it is not forcing given West's initial 1NT response, but should show a hand willing to go to game opposite a minimum reverse, which is not what West should be thinking. That leaves 2NT. Again this shows pretty much what West has for shape, and if he also has enough for game, he can instead bid 3NT. So 2NT is not forcing, absent agreement otherwise.

 

I would rank:

 

2NT - 10

3♥ - 1

3♣ - 0

[smerriman]

For simplicity, I think responder's continuations should mean the same thing.

But most continuations have no equivalent.

 

For example, after an initial 1 suit response with a game forcing hand:

 

- raising opener's second suit normally shows 4 card support. That's impossible here - does 3♠ show 3 cards, or something else?

 

- you can also rebid your own suit or bid the fourth suit as an artificial force. Neither exist here, so what are the precise definitions of 3♣ and 3♦?

 

Do you also give up the natural 2NT invite - almost always unnecessary after a 1 suit response, but almost always what you'll actually have after a 1NT start?

[LBengtsson]

I do not want to complicate this to someone new to this forum, but by inference as partner has bid 1NT instead of 1♠ he does not have a 4 card ♠ suit. Experts use a convention called Gazzilli (where opener rebids 2♣ (instead of 2♠) as a artificial forcing bid) for hands like these where the 1NT response to a 1♥ opening can be various meanings/hands.

 

Obviously, in your auction, partner should not have passed the 2♠ reverse you made.

[sjn007]

[hv=pc=n&w=s65hq6dj97cat6542&e=sa932hakt54da52cq&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p1hp1np2sp]266|200[/hv]

The first thing is to agree with partner that the reverse is forcing. Pass is not an option. Absent further agreement on methods it would seem West's options are 2NT, 3♣, and perhaps 3♥. None of these would be forcing. Which is the least evil given West's hand and what East has shown (which should be something like 4=5=(2-2), 4=5=(3-1) or (more rarely) 4=5=(0-4) and 17 or more HCP?

 

3♥ would show pretty much what West has for shape, but has the disadvantage of forcing the pair to at least the three level, and possibly higher given that East doesn't know whether West has a heart fit (i.e., 3 or more hearts) or what his strength is (is game possible or not?) 3♣ would show again show pretty much what West has for shape, and it is not forcing given West's initial 1NT response, but should show a hand willing to go to game opposite a minimum reverse, which is not what West should be thinking. That leaves 2NT. Again this shows pretty much what West has for shape, and if he also has enough for game, he can instead bid 3NT. So 2NT is not forcing, absent agreement otherwise.

 

I would rank:

 

2NT - 10

3♥ - 1

3♣ - 0

 

Thanks for your reply! Very good info. After my P's 2NT bid I took it as an invite to 3NT and since I felt he had more than the 7 points necessary (added to my p18) to go to game, I bid 3NT. We got set (this was all in the 499 pairs tournament) but many others went and got set also. Our score was a 45%. My P afterwards said I shouldn't have gone to game but I saw ~p26 so I thought it was necessary. Would you have stayed at 2NT due to the club Q being unsupported?

[DavidKok]

With 2♠ you have shown your hand, (16)17+ with 5♥4♠. I hate playing in 2NT but if this is NF for you I would probably have passed. You've got no extras and no fit, if 3NT was right partner could have bid it.

[AL78]

I think given the reverse is at the bottom end of strength and partner is forced to bid something after the reverse, 2NT looks like partner is trying to make the weakest bid possible without a fit in either of your suits so I would play him for 6-7 HCP and pass. As it happens it is a misfit so not much makes. If you play Lebensohl here partner has the option of bailing out into his club suit or showing a minimal hand with heart support if you class Qx as support here, but whatever you end up in is going to be a struggle.

[mikeh]

I do not want to complicate this to someone new to this forum, but by inference as partner has bid 1NT instead of 1♠ he does not have a 4 card ♠ suit. Experts use a convention called Gazzilli (where opener rebids 2♣ (instead of 2♠) as a artificial forcing bid) for hands like these where the 1NT response to a 1♥ opening can be various meanings/hands.

 

Obviously, in your auction, partner should not have passed the 2♠ reverse you made.

I think stating that ‘experts use…Gazzilli’ is a huge overbid. Some experts (and some advanced players) use Gazzilli but, at least in my experience, most do not.

 

Gazzilli is not a wonder drug. It has problems of its own. Those who use it think that it’s advantages offset it’s disadvantages

 

There are alternatives

 

 

For example, in one partnership we assign an artificial meaning to 1H 1N 2S. It’s either 5=6 majors or a game force with super hearts or a game force with hearts and a minor. We use 1H 1N 3m as strong but non forcing..so say x AKxxx AKJxx xx would bid 1H then, over 1N, 3D.

[blackshoe]

Yes, I would have passed 2NT.