Freak hand opposite overcall

[AL78]

Matchpoints, game all:

 

Here is a problem hand my partner held during the following auction:

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sk96hdaqt76432ca2&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h1s2h]133|200[/hv]

 

What do you do now?

[DavidKok]

Difficult! We always force to game, but there are plenty of slam chances. At matchpoints it's a sin to land in 5♦ when 4♠ is better though. I think I would show the 8-card suit, hiding my support and hoping to investigate slam. And if partner doesn't cooperate I can try to give preference in 4♠, and partner shouldn't run to 5♦ too easily at matchpoints. So 3♦ for me.

[Cyberyeti]

Difficult! We always force to game, but there are plenty of slam chances. At matchpoints it's a sin to land in 5♦ when 4♠ is better though. I think I would show the 8-card suit, hiding my support and hoping to investigate slam. And if partner doesn't cooperate I can try to give preference in 4♠, and partner shouldn't run to 5♦ too easily at matchpoints. So 3♦ for me.

 

Well you can either hide it with 3♦ or overestimate it with 4♦.

 

Depends what you overcall on, with MY partner I bid 4♦ then 6♦ to show this sort of thing (yes I should be 4-7 rather than 3-8) and am more worried about missing 7 than being in a no play 6.

[DavidKok]

3♦ is forcing. 4♦ is not 'I was worried you would not understand that 3♦ showed diamonds so I bid one extra, partner!'. Depending on agreements it is a splinter in spades or a fitbid for spades (for me the latter).

 

Also, if we are looking for slam, why would I ever want to take away my own bidding space?

 

For me ♠AQ9xx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣xxx is an overcall on this auction. Move around some good spades into some so-so hearts and clubs and I am sure we can find a hand with no play in 6♦ (maybe give partner 5 spades, 4 hearts, a diamond void and four soft clubs).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

what is your agreement set?

 

We can bid 3C, a xfer to diamonds and take it from there.

 

I guess 3D is forcing, but what do we expect partner to do,

if he raises, we are happy, but most of the time he will bid 3S,

..., it is quite likely that we will hear 3H / 4H over 3D anyway,

and partner passes.

 

As it is, you have to decide, if you abandon spades and play 5D

(the route would be 3D - 5D), or if you show the spade support.

At IMPS going for 5D is more certain to get you a plus score,

at MP ..., I would go for spades.

 

And I would not try chasing slam, unless you have a reasonable

strong agreement set in place.

[Cyberyeti]

3♦ is forcing. 4♦ is not 'I was worried you would not understand that 3♦ showed diamonds so I bid one extra, partner!'. Depending on agreements it is a splinter in spades or a fitbid for spades (for me the latter).

 

Also, if we are looking for slam, why would I ever want to take away my own bidding space?

 

For me ♠AQ9xx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣xxx is an overcall on this auction. Move around some good spades into some so-so hearts and clubs and I am sure we can find a hand with no play in 6♦ (maybe give partner 5 spades, 4 hearts, a diamond void and four soft clubs).

 

4♦ is a forcing fit jump to most in the 21st century, and my partner is more than a king better than that when he overcalls, that's 2♠ or pass.

[Stephen Tu]

Why the hell should 3♦ be forcing? You'll pick up a ton of hands that want to bid a NF 3♦ before one where you want a F 3♦. Especially if you overcall 1S frequently on meager values, which I think is practically mandatory at MP.

 

Now, one could perhaps do things with artificial 2nt or dbl introducing transfers, but without special agreements I'd expect 3D to be constructive but definitely NF.

 

[DavidKok]

4♦ is a forcing fit jump to most in the 21st century, and my partner is more than a king better than that when he overcalls, that's 2♠ or pass.

Vulnerable 5-card jump overcalls in second seat are not popular at all, I'd shy away from those.

 

Why the hell should 3♦ be forcing? You'll pick up a ton of hands that want to bid a NF 3♦ before one where you want a F 3♦. Especially if you overcall 1S frequently on meager values, which I think is practically mandatory at MP.

 

Now, one could perhaps do things with artificial 2nt or dbl introducing transfers, but without special agreements I'd expect 3D to be constructive but definitely NF.

With weaker hands we double, or pass and hope for partner to keep the auction open. For all we know partner has extra length and we belong in 2♠. In order for passing out 3♦ to be correct over a constructive NF bid we need 2♥ to make, 3♥ to be a bad option, 2♠ and 3♠ to be worse, 4♦ to be a poor contract and of course 3NT needs to be off. 3♦ forcing lets us explore all of those, as well as including all the strong hands with diamonds (or strong hands with no clear direction but a somewhat biddable diamond suit). We only pay up in the situation where it was right to stop in exactly 3♦, and even there we can recover somewhat because sometimes partner will keep the auction open, we can double or the opponents mistakenly bid on. NF is the wrong side of a parlay bet here, in my opinion.

[AL78]

Plenty of interesting discussion. I'm not sure whether 3♦ should be a fit non jump, natural and forcing or not, we haven't got any agreements beyond direct raises being competitive and cueing the opps suit as a strong raise.

 

Partner bid 3♥ to show a good raise in spades, the auction proceeded:

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sk96hdaqt76432ca2&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h1s2h3h(good%20raise)4h4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Now what?

[AL78]

Plenty of interesting discussion. I'm not sure whether 3♦ should be a fit non jump, natural and forcing or not, we haven't got any agreements beyond direct raises being competitive and cueing the opps suit as a strong raise.

 

Partner bid 3♥ to show a good raise in spades, the auction proceeded:

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sk96hdaqt76432ca2&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h1s2h3h(good%20raise)4h4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Now what?

[DavidKok]

Now you regret not showing your 8-card 'side' suit ;)

What are your agreements here? 4NT Blackwood, 5♣ control, 5♦ control denying club control, 5♥ void-showing or perhaps Exclusion?

[P_Marlowe]

Plenty of interesting discussion. I'm not sure whether 3♦ should be a fit non jump, natural and forcing or not, we haven't got any agreements beyond direct raises being competitive and cueing the opps suit as a strong raise.

 

Partner bid 3♥ to show a good raise in spades, the auction proceeded:

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sk96hdaqt76432ca2&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h1s2h3h(good%20raise)4h4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Now what?

6S

 

What else?

You have the KCs, partner should have a 6 carder, what else justifies 4S,

so simply go.

[Stephen Tu]

With weaker hands we double, or pass and hope for partner to keep the auction open.

That gives up double showing both minors though. Passing hoping partner can double -- to me that puts too much pressure on partner, he overcalled light hoping you could raise, because that's the safest time to come in. Now he has to balance light over 2H also, not knowing you have values and a good suit you couldn't show because you didn't have enough to force to 3S+? That's dangerous IMO.

 

For all we know partner has extra length and we belong in 2♠

Possible, but a lot of those partner might have bid 2S to begin with, and in any case partner will have 5 cd suit a lot more often than 6+.

 

In order for passing out 3♦ to be correct over a constructive NF bid we need 2♥ to make, 3♥ to be a bad option, 2♠ and 3♠ to be worse, 4♦ to be a poor contract and of course 3NT needs to be off.

At MP you win a ton if 3d makes whether 2H makes or not. If 3D down 1 you win a lot if they don't double you & 2H was making. If you push them to 3H you got a free shot at beating 3 instead of 2, this is great in the long run. 2 spades and 3 spades are not really options because you don't have fit (for hands contemplating NF 3d), and unlikely to get there if you have values and can't show. 3nt/4d tend to be poor because the opps have a fit and both have values, the points are split and neither side has game/quasi-game. Basically when points are roughly evenly divided, the number of hands where you want to take a shot at 3d making or down 1 (esp. nv, and vul if they aren't likely to find the double even when you are off), and sell out to 3H, are a crap-ton vs the number of hands where you want to voluntarily commit to something > 3H.

 

3♦ forcing lets us explore all of those, as well as including all the strong hands with diamonds (or strong hands with no clear direction but a somewhat biddable diamond suit). We only pay up in the situation where it was right to stop in exactly 3♦, and even there we can recover somewhat because sometimes partner will keep the auction open, we can double or the opponents mistakenly bid on. NF is the wrong side of a parlay bet here, in my opinion.

Could not disagree more. Tons of hands that want to take a shot at pushing them up one/making 3D/getting out for down 1 undoubled. Many fewer hands that want to effectively force to 4D.

[DavidKok]

Nothing simple about it. How is partner to raise us to the good 7? I think we should try to find out whether partner has the king of diamonds, and/or is staring at ♠AJTxxx which might be an issue.

[AL78]

Now you regret not showing your 8-card 'side' suit ;)

What are your agreements here? 4NT Blackwood, 5♣ control, 5♦ control denying club control, 5♥ void-showing or perhaps Exclusion?

 

4NT Blackwood and cue bids showing controls.

 

My partner went through Blackwood and we ended up in 6♠:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sht432dj95cqt9654&w=sk96hdaqt76432ca2&n=sjt82haqj976dck87&e=saq7543hk85dk8cj3&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h1s2h3h4h4sp4np5dp6sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Heart lead ruffed, cashed the king and it all fell apart on the 4-0 break. I tried some desperation measures to give myself a chance but in doing that ended up three down for a bottom. I can hold it to one down but it would make all of two matchpoints difference. Five out of eight pairs are bidding and making game, one doubled, one pair went one down in 6♠ doubled, and one pair found 6♦ making +1. This is the second time in recent weeks with this partner at this club we have bid a theoretically good slam largely not found that has gone off on a bad trump break, I'm beginning to think our slam bidding is cursed :lol:.

 

7♦E is cold.

 

If I had been sitting South I would have raised more than 2♥ which would make it harder for EW to bid the failing slam.

[DavidKok]

This is a difficult hand but I would have found a different bid at almost every turn. I'm afraid that this is not so easy to switch up - it relies on hand evaluation, bidding systems and judgement together.

As per usual the Blackwood bid was a mistake.

[helene_t]

I am probably missing something but I don’t see how 7di makes on a club lead. Anyway, I think I would bid 4di fitbid and then make some noise over 4sp, partner will bid one slam or the other

 

I agree with Stephen that 3di should be nonforcing.

[AL78]

I am probably missing something but I don’t see how 7di makes on a club lead. Anyway, I think I would bid 4di fitbid and then make some noise over 4sp, partner will bid one slam or the other

 

I agree with Stephen that 3di should be nonforcing.

 

There are 12 tricks on top. North cannot hold onto four spades and the ace of hearts when eight diamonds are run against him so a small spade or the heart king becomes the 13th trick on a squeeze.

[AL78]

I am probably missing something but I don’t see how 7di makes on a club lead. Anyway, I think I would bid 4di fitbid and then make some noise over 4sp, partner will bid one slam or the other

 

I agree with Stephen that 3di should be nonforcing.

 

There are 12 tricks on top. North cannot hold onto four spades and the ace of hearts when eight diamonds are run against him so a small spade or the heart king becomes the 13th trick on a squeeze.

[AL78]

For some reason I am repeatedly getting Gateway timeout errors when I try to post, which is why I appear to be double posting.

[pescetom]

I don't think there is much to blame here, it was a reasonable choice to cue for spades given the competition. After 4S I would prefer to control bid 5C rather than RKCB, that way you learn immediately about K diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't think there is much to blame here, it was a reasonable choice to cue for spades given the competition. After 4S I would prefer to control bid 5C rather than RKCB, that way you learn immediately about K diamonds.

 

Indeed although you want to be in 7♦ or 7♠, which shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to find, but also shouldn't make with the bad breaks.

[Cyberyeti]

For some reason I am repeatedly getting Gateway timeout errors when I try to post, which is why I appear to be double posting.

 

The one on which you get the gateway error eventually arrives, so don't send it again

[AL78]

The one on which you get the gateway error eventually arrives, so don't send it again

 

When I get the error I reload the page which I think means it sends the post again. If I get the error again I guess all I need to do is bring the forum up in the browser e.g. in another tab but not by reloading the page.

[AL78]

Indeed although you want to be in 7♦ or 7♠, which shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to find, but also shouldn't make with the bad breaks.

 

7♦ makes if East plays it but I don't think it is realistic to construct an auction where that happens. If West plays it South could make a Lightner double which should tell North to lead a spade.