Drop

[thorvald]

[hv=url=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=pn%7CHuman%2CRobot%2CRobot%2CRobot%7Cst%7C%7Cmd%7C2SKT2HA98DAK64CQ54%2CSA8654HJTDCKJ9763%2CS97HKQ532DQJ9852C%2CSQJ3H764DT73CAT82%7Csv%7C0%7Cah%7CBoard%208%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7C2S%21%7Can%7CCappelletti%20-%20spades%20and%20a%20minor%20--%203-%20%21H%3B%204%2B%20%21S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%7Cmb%7C2N%21%7Can%7CLebensohl%20-%20Forces%203C%20by%20partner%20--%2011-%20HCP%3B%2012-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7CForced%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3D%7Can%7CDrop%20--%205%2B%20%21D%3B%208-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cmc%7C11%7C]399|300[/hv]

 

From a challenge, but the same happens at the practice table, but I am not sure if the practice table also use the free robots

[LBengtsson]

It is strange how the bot cannot see a red suit game with 6/5 shape opposite a strong no-trump opener, especially after a opponent uses Cappelletti. Opener would have to be minimum and with the wrong cards for game not to be a reasonable contract. I would expect most intermediate+ players to be in game here, even with the opps intervening.

[smerriman]

Bidding table uses free robots only. Teaching table uses the ones you rented.

 

Not surprised at all that basic robot would get this wrong, since they're all about points and never can bid properly with lots of distribution; "seeing" a game is good relies on simulations.

 

But more surprised that advanced robots actually do the same here.

 

Old version of GIB used to simulate its first bid and could comfortably see it's better to game force. (If you forced it to start with 2NT, it would bid the same 3♦ the next time, because it's forced to do so - doesn't have other options built in at that point).

 

But current version of GIB appears to have simulations now turned off for the first bid (but the second bid was still forced, so it was too late by then.)

 

No idea why BBO have weakened the robot since the old version. Maybe too much server load.

[pescetom]

Even if it can't simulate to save a few cents (despite price hikes), Lebensohl to weak 3 diamonds does not fit the hand.

[thepossum]

I ran it though other major computer bridge software and it reached 4Sx, apparently realising that it was a plus score, and 5H N was not. But 5D is apparently

 

Not sure how I would bid it but would be wanting to explore slam or at least consider it

 

Lebensohl remains in the too hard basket for some us, and apparently many who try to explain it :)

 

I used to love the "Drop" explanation. Took me a while to work out what I was supposed to do

[smerriman]

Even if it can't simulate to save a few cents (despite price hikes), Lebensohl to weak 3 diamonds does not fit the hand.

Don't know what the exact values used here are, but if, for example, you defined that you should normally have 9 HCP to game force, then a robot without simulations has to show it as weaker. The equivalent of "obviously this is stronger than that" or "does not fit the hand" to a human is simulation for a robot, so with that off its rules are often generally quite useless when it comes to these types of hands.

[pescetom]

Don't know what the exact values used here are, but if, for example, you defined that you should normally have 9 HCP to game force, then a robot without simulations has to show it as weaker. The equivalent of "obviously this is stronger than that" or "does not fit the hand" to a human is simulation for a robot, so with that off its rules are often generally quite useless when it comes to these types of hands.

Understood, but the description for 'drop' says 8- total points. Assuming a probable fit for 6 card diamonds the total points must surely be 11+, however calculated.

[smerriman]

Understood, but the description for 'drop' says 8- total points. Assuming a probable fit for 6 card diamonds the total points must surely be 11+, however calculated.

Yes, of course - but that's what I was referring to earlier about it being too late by then. With lots of distribution, there is almost always an overlap (or underlap would be a better description) in ranges - too weak in high card values to force to game, but too strong in distributional values for all of the possible follow-up bids.

 

There isn't a possible way to show extra values the second time, because the assumption is with more values it would have game forced the first time. It thus only has weak descriptions available. Simulations should fill these types of holes.

[thepossum]

Can you transfer under Lebensohl?? Still trying to find out

[pescetom]

Can you transfer under Lebensohl?? Still trying to find out

Rubensohl and (gasp) Transfer Lebensohl are transfer based.

[thepossum]

Not like a Jacoby transfer. How do you transfer to hearts for example

 

I don't think Gib implements it properly anyway but whose version would they implement

[pescetom]

Not like a Jacoby transfer. How do you transfer to hearts for example

 

I don't think Gib implements it properly anyway but whose version would they implement

Gib implements a traditional Lebensohl without transfers (with or without going through the Puppet).

In Rubensohl or Transfer Lebensohl you can bid 3 diamonds to transfer to hearts.