Do you pre-empt?

[AL78]

♠Q

♥J83

♦654

♣AQ8752

 

MPs, green against red. Partner and RHO pass. Is this worth a 3♣ pre-empt in third seat?

[Cyberyeti]

With no intermediates, I probably open 1♣ for the lead then back out of the auction, 3♣x can be going for a lot with no game on for the opps.

[pescetom]

You have a bit too much to risk it, IMHO.

1♣ both for the lead and disinterest in majors.

[eagles123]

I’d definitely bid 3 clubs 3rd seat favourable, if we go for 1100 oh well next board

[AL78]

I opened 3♣ and went for -800.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqhj83d654caq8752&w=skj632hkqda92ckt9&n=s985ht764dkjt3cj6&e=sat74ha952dq87c43&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=pp3cd4cdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I lost four major suit tricks, the club king and two diamonds.

 

Only a three table movement, the other two scores were 2♠W+2 and 4♠W-1. This is what happens when I try to be aggressive in seemingly favourable positions.

[DavidKok]

I don't like it. I think I'm supposed to open 3♣, but there's so many negative factors. Matchpoints, lack of intermediates, ace of clubs, queen of spades, three hearts, over strength. I think I will brave a pass and hope partner forgives me.

[Cyberyeti]

If they're either not going to bid, or not going to make 4♠, you don't need to preempt at this club :) (and partner certainly doesn't need to raise on that)

[AL78]

If they're either not going to bid, or not going to make 4♠, you don't need to preempt at this club :) (and partner certainly doesn't need to raise on that)

 

What can you do in a mixed field with only three tables? If I pass they are finding 4♠ and I don't see how it can go off on such a favourable layout. Partner reasoned that if I had my bid, we have no defence so he wanted to put pressure on the opponents. If the diamond queen was onside I'd have got out for -500 which should be a good score.

[Cyberyeti]

What can you do in a mixed field with only three tables? If I pass they are finding 4♠ and I don't see how it can go off on such a favourable layout. Partner reasoned that if I had my bid, we have no defence so he wanted to put pressure on the opponents. If the diamond queen was onside I'd have got out for -500 which should be a good score.

 

Only if you guess really well when they cash the 2 top hearts, cross with a spade and play 2 more rounds of hearts.

[DavidKok]

Your preempt is questionable but partner's raise is awful.

[dokoko]

In a field where nobody makes the obvious 11 tricks in spades I would not try to win such boards in the bidding. Just reach normal contracts and make more tricks.

 

With serious opposition this is a reasonable 3♣ in 3rd opposite a partner who only raises with help.

[mycroft]

I would open - and I would preempt. My opinion of third seat preempts is "I have 13 cards, and a fair number of them are clubs". If you don't widen your range (sometimes very weak, sometimes hands you would open 1 if partner wasn't a passed hand as well as all the normal ones), they know better what to do, and they know better how to play it too.

 

I am shocked at the raise. I would never have thought of raising this, even a first seat preempt. North has no tricks (okay, maybe 1) and what few cards he has work on defence given the double (okay, not this time. But how often is the double on 18 "flat" as opposed to 4441 or 4432 14, 15 with no club cards?)

 

But if I decide that the colours are right and it's time to push them, I would *never raise to 4*. That just gives East the option to bid game or take the points - and you don't want East to do either of those things! If they bid game, I'd expect it to make; if they don't, we're going for more than the -140 or -170 "only 3" would have got them (whether or not game makes). I want them to make the last guess, but after 4♣, there's No Wrong Guess.

 

Pass or bid 5♣ on hands where you expect 4M to make (which means, on this hand, pass!) I was told something by one of my partners a long time ago, which, while if you're known for it, you can be gamed against (so you have to game yourself sometimes, too), is no more *wrong* than any other Bridge Rule: "Raise the preempt - immediately - to the level where you want them to bid and play." Here, I don't want them to bid on to 4M; it's going to make. Here, I don't want to bid 5; too big a chance they'll take the points, and the points will beat -6x0. So pass, and hope they stop in 3. They won't this time (3♣-X-p-4♣; p-4♠; unless West decides that they haven't shown their hand, and keycards their way to 6 - that might happen, especially in a weaker field), but oh well.

 

Having said all of that, I'll echo MikeH on other hands we've seen from you - if you're trying to get better by looking at your results against a field that doesn't get to game with 16-opposite-10 and a 9-card major fit (and who can't take 10 tricks if they do bid it), it won't work. Look at what should have happened, and shrug when you beat "should have", but the field can't "should". I assume you understand the difference between "what should have happened" and "double dummy par".

[sfi]

I open 3C as South. I pass as North. And I consider other actions as significant errors of judgment. Mycroft covered the salient points well.

[eagles123]

I polled it on BW, at the time of writing 21 votes for 3C, 2 votes for 1C, no votes for anything else ...

 

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-problem-2-5qpq97mos8/

[gwnn]

Your 3♣ is 100% automatic IMO. Your partner's raise is a bad poker move at best but mostly just bad. The main two ways you'll win this hand (from North's point of view) are:

 

1. LHO bids 3M and RHO passes. Both are maximum and they miss a game. Now LHO will often just shrug and bid 4M.

2. LHO bids 3M and RHO raises to 4. Both are maximum and they miss a slam. Again, your LHO will be forced to stretch to 4M and slam will be easier to bid.

 

LHO passing over 4C is not a big factor, if LHO is weak enough to pass, RHO will be strong enough to reopen. And LHO making a responsive double and RHO shrugging and passing, as happened here, is a nightmare. Aaaand some of the time you raise on Jx you get your partner off to a bad lead...

 

PS none of this is actually related to how disciplined your 3♣ is. Your partner's 4♣ bid would be terrible opposite any 3♣ style IMO.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the 3C bid is on the the agressive side, but you are green vs. red and in 3rd.

Partner does not have a sure trick for a club contract, hence he should pass.

The King of dimonds is not a sure trick, you may count it as 1/2, not enough.

 

Even with 1 trick raising is not the best proposition, given that partner

was 3rd seat, green vs. red.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mikeh]

Far more important than is the question ‘do you preempt’ on the given hand is the question ‘what will partner expect if I preempt’.

 

As an example, I have two first rate partners. I play some things with both (transfer responses to 1C, 14-16 1N vul, 2M is 10-13 with a 6 card suit, multi 2D, etc) but other aspects of the methods are very different. Preempts are part of that.

 

In one partnership we routinely preempt at favourable with Kxxxxx and out (with some shape) whereas my other partner would be horrified if I did that….and, more importantly, he’d never play me for that when deciding whether to bid.

 

As for what I’d do, with either partner, I have no strong feelings. I don’t like my major holdings and I don’t like holding the AQ of clubs (I’d much rather KQxxxx)….I have more defence than I’d prefer. But I’m in third, and have only 4 major suit cards. In neither of my partnerships would partner ‘save’ after my 3C opening without shape…it’s a beginner’s error to raise simply because one has 3 or 4 card support…one also needs to be able to use those trump to ruff partner’s side losers. So I’m not overly worried about going for a number in 5C.

 

I think some days I bid and others I pass…entirely mood dependent

[gwnn]

While I agree that 'what will partner expect if I preempt' is generally more important than 'should I preempt', I think on this hand I'd open 3C no matter what partner thinks. Maybe it causes some misdefense on some hands but I don't think I will be upset if partner saves over 4M or anything. Maybe there are some rare cases like 3-card support and two tricks where partner might save but that's a fairly narrow range where I'll just shrug and take the L. In the meantime I'll annoy opps enough to make up for those I think.

[LBengtsson]

♠Q

♥J83

♦654

♣AQ8752

 

MPs, green against red. Partner and RHO pass. Is this worth a 3♣ pre-empt in third seat?

 

I would have put the question another way. Is this worth a raise to 4♣ when partner opens white/red in 3rd seat after two passes, and RHO opp. doubles?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s985ht764dkjt3cj6]133|100[/hv]

 

I think we all know the answer by now. So many players pre-empt at the three level with 6m that a raise to 4♣ with such a balanced hand is just poker (as someone else said). And even if partner's pre-empts are with 7m guaranteed, it is still not a worth a hike to the four level.

 

The one thing other forum members have not said here is that it is sometimes good to let the opps. guess what to do next after a pre-empt as opposed to forcing them into a higher-level decision which might turn out better. The higher-level decision can be worse also, obviously, so it is a two-edged sword whether to raise a pre-empt as interference. But this hand does not qualify imo.

[Cyberyeti]

I would have put the question another way. Is this worth a raise to 4♣ when partner opens white/red in 3rd seat after two passes, and RHO opp. doubles?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s985ht764dkjt3cj6]133|100[/hv]

 

I think we all know the answer by now. So many players pre-empt at the three level with 6m that a raise to 4♣ with such a balanced hand is just poker (as someone else said). And even if partner's pre-empts are with 7m guaranteed, it is still not a worth a hike to the four level.

 

The one thing other forum members have not said here is that it is sometimes good to let the opps. guess what to do next after a pre-empt as opposed to forcing them into a higher-level decision which might turn out better. The higher-level decision can be worse also, obviously, so it is a two-edged sword whether to raise a pre-empt as interference. But this hand does not qualify imo.

 

The other point is that if you take away ♦K, it might be worth the raise as you assume you can now afford to go for 1400 (yes you might be wrong if partner has AKxxxx).

[gwnn]

The other point is that if you take away ♦K, it might be worth the raise as you assume you can now afford to go for 1400 (yes you might be wrong if partner has AKxxxx).

I can never afford to go for 1400, lol, not even at matchpoints. Who knows what partner has and what % of the field actually finds the slam? I'd rather just stay put.

[helene_t]

I can't imagine not preempting with this hand. Come on, you have a decent 6-card suit, no flaws, and a singleton? I would at least consider preempting under any conditions except 4th seat or vulnerable in 2nd seat, although I probably wouldn't do it vulnerable in 1st seat and r/w in 3rd. In third seat w/r this hand is closer to 4♣ (or some psyche) than to pass, imho.

 

I agree with Csaba that partner shouldn't raise no matter what they expect from your hand. The preempt itself is much more effective than the raise, so unless they have enough to know that 4♣ is safe, they should just pass. From partner's point of view it looks like opps have slam, but even if you had a very sound preempt you could still go for -800 on a deal where opps may have slam but probably wouldn't bid it anyway.

 

A doubleton raise could work if one of the opps think that their partner must have a singleton clubs because you apparently have a 10-card fit, and then bid a slam that is off two quick club tricks. So raising on Kx or Ax can work. A raise on Kx may also inspire preemptor to underlead the ace if they have a void. But raising on Jx is completely pointless.

[sfi]

For another view, there is a top US pro who has long held the view that:

• at matchpoints
  
• in 3rd seat
  
• at favourable vulnerability
  

it is a huge winning position to open 3C on:

xx

xx

xxxx

xxxxx

 

It's a bit extreme even for me (and I'm not averse to preempting a 5-card suit here), but he's won a lot of national titles so it's worth at least paying attention to the idea.

 

It is clear to me that opening 3C on a wide range of hands under these conditions often turns the bidding into a guessing game where we have a significant advantage, so not doing it when we have something that looks like a middle of the range 3C bid gives up a positive position for no real reason.

[Douglas43]

I would have put the question another way. Is this worth a raise to 4♣ when partner opens white/red in 3rd seat after two passes, and RHO opp. doubles?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s985ht764dkjt3cj6]133|100[/hv]

 

I think we all know the answer by now. So many players pre-empt at the three level with 6m that a raise to 4♣ with such a balanced hand is just poker (as someone else said). And even if partner's pre-empts are with 7m guaranteed, it is still not a worth a hike to the four level.

 

The one thing other forum members have not said here is that it is sometimes good to let the opps. guess what to do next after a pre-empt as opposed to forcing them into a higher-level decision which might turn out better. The higher-level decision can be worse also, obviously, so it is a two-edged sword whether to raise a pre-empt as interference. But this hand does not qualify imo.

 

I agree, particularly because a third hand pre-empt can be wider range. If it's lighter than usual, -800 becomes more likely, or if it's a bit stronger, we can be -300 on a part-score hand.

[Cyberyeti]

I can never afford to go for 1400, lol, not even at matchpoints. Who knows what partner has and what % of the field actually finds the slam? I'd rather just stay put.

 

I know what muy partner usually has and you can probably afford 2000 :)