Thinking ahead

[thepossum]

But then again I am not used to such a complex system - maybe this should be in the Gib forum(that's for Mike)

 

How would you bid this hand in your system and what are your panned rebids?

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat73h8542da92ck6&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp]133|200[/hv]

 

MPs unfavourable. South is best hand (that's unusual non-standard)

 

Maybe its an obvious pass but does anyone else have a decent rebid in any auction

[michel444]

in My favorite System SPREAD

North make a Forcing Pass so he have 14+ HCP

so my anser will be 1♣ a minimum positive response with 19 TT :D

 

 

in:

ACOL 1 ♠ 1 point more and will consider biding 1NT

Moscito 1♠

Mutos 1♠

5 cards Major PASS

ROMAN CLUB 1♣

PRECISION 1♦

Goren Pass

EHAA 1 NT (10-12) KAMIKAZE NT

[Gilithin]

I would probably open 1♦ most of the time planning to pass any response, even if playing Acol with a WNT, unless playing with a partner who would freak out at such a move.

[AL78]

I would pass and be prepared to shrug my shoulders if miss a nine card spade fit and it turns out I should have opened.

[kenberg]

I gather you are playing with the bots?If I were to open it, a pretty big if, I think I open 1S. Since this is "best hand", neither opponent has more than I do and so at least some points are with pard. I am pretty sure that for the bots 2C by pard would then be drury, but 2D would be natural. Thus pard will maybe raise spades or bid 2C, over which I get out in spades, or he bids 1NT which I pass, or he bids a red suit. and I pass. I Suppose 4H might make on some miracle layout but most often not. If Lho declares, a spade lead from pard is probably welcome.

 

But there is a lot to be said for passing. And 1D is reasonable. But the bots don't get mad and leave the table if I open 1S and it goes wrong, so I am tempted.

[mikeh]

Playing a method in which 1C could be on two, I open 1C. Playing a method in which 1C is three plus, I open 1D.

 

I’m never opening 1M. With a minimum and 4=4 majors it’s common, and very much my approach, to open 1H if one intends to pass most responses.that allows for 1S from partner, thus ensuring that we don’t miss any 4=4 fit while 1S pretty much rules out finding hearts

 

But this heart suit isn’t right for that.

 

IS risks getting to two spades on a 4=3 fit and this hand/suit isn’t right for that.

 

I bid 1m, clubs or diamonds depending on method, and pass a 1M response.

 

Note that 1m allows for a negative double if LHO bids (in that way, being able to open 1C gains if LHO bids 1D).

 

I usually don’t pass two aces and a king. Plus I have length in both majors.

 

The fact that I know that no other player has more that 11 hcp makes the opening even more obvious. Partner has at least 8 hcp and often 9-10. If he has a major, especially a 5 card major, we absolutely need to bid.

[akwoo]

I open 1N, ostensibly 12-14 but frequently stretched in 3rd seat.

 

Playing standard 2/1, I open 1D. This is the thing about growing up playing 5 card majors - you don't have to think about opening 3 card minors; it's just what you do.

[pescetom]

I would pass and be prepared to shrug my shoulders if miss a nine card spade fit and it turns out I should have opened.

You might also miss a ten card hearts fit and eight card spades fit, at least with many players around here.

[Tramticket]

ostensibly 12-14 but frequently stretched in 3rd seat.

 

This is completely the wrong way round playing bridge.

 

But, when you know 4th seat is weaker than you, it might work. But don't pretend it's bridge.

[Stephen Tu]

I'm never opening 1M. With a minimum and 4=4 majors it's common, and very much my approach, to open 1H if one intends to pass most responses.that allows for 1S from partner, thus ensuring that we don't miss any 4=4 fit while 1S pretty much rules out finding hearts

 

FWIW I think opening 1h on 4-4 majors in an ostensibly 5 cd major system is terrible in general, regardless of how good the hearts are (of course different if playing some 4cM system where 1H on 4-4 is systemic). Partner is trained to raise to 2H, or like bid drury, on 4-3 in the majors, or 5-3 in the majors, routinely, missing your much better spade fit. This will happen *a lot*. I don't see any big gains in opening 1H vs your 3cd minor. Perhaps lead direction occasionally, but you'll be on lead frequently, and partner isn't going to take your minor opening in a 5cM system that seriously as a lead director. Occasionally you might pick off the opponents from playing in hearts. But personally I want to find all my 8+ major fits and not play stupid 7 cd fits when I have a 9 cd fit available.

 

[mikeh]

FWIW I think opening 1h on 4-4 majors in an ostensibly 5 cd major system is terrible in general, regardless of how good the hearts are (of course different if playing some 4cM system where 1H on 4-4 is systemic). Partner is trained to raise to 2H, or like bid drury, on 4-3 in the majors, or 5-3 in the majors, routinely, missing your much better spade fit. This will happen *a lot*. I don't see any big gains in opening 1H vs your 3cd minor. Perhaps lead direction occasionally, but you'll be on lead frequently, and partner isn't going to take your minor opening in a 5cM system that seriously as a lead director. Occasionally you might pick off the opponents from playing in hearts. But personally I want to find all my 8+ major fits and not play stupid 7 cd fits when I have a 9 cd fit available.

I think it fairly obvious that one doesn’t open 1H with 4=4 majors within the context of a method in which 1H shows 5.

 

If playing such a method, which I certainly do most of the time, I’d open 1C (showing 2+ in my usual partnerships). However, I have played methods in which 1S is always 5 but 1H is permitted on a chunky four card suit on a hand that intends to pass 1N or 1S.

 

When playing such a method, responder doesn’t raise hearts on three bad hearts and a balanced hand.

 

There are gains and losses, as in all systemic design.

 

Chunky hearts would be, say, AQ109 or equivalent

 

In real bridge, where LHO often has a good hand when we are minimum in third, this style gets the lead we want (one of the reasons for requiring a good suit) and preempts LHO to a degree.

 

Also it enables competition when partner has a shapely hand, minimal values, and good hearts, with which he may be shut out should we open 1m (that’s rare but not insignificant). And so on

[akwoo]

This is completely the wrong way round playing bridge.

 

But, when you know 4th seat is weaker than you, it might work. But don't pretend it's bridge.

 

Honestly, if it were legal, I'd probably try 8-13, all systems off, in 3rd seat.

 

The 12-14 1N is a somewhat constructive opening in 1st and 2nd. In 3rd, it's mostly preemptive, though it still has constructive effects on the rest of your system.

 

If I open 1D, I can't raise a 1M response to 2; I'm too weak. I certainly don't want to give LHO two shots at bidding 2C.

[AL78]

You might also miss a ten card hearts fit and eight card spades fit, at least with many players around here.

 

Or I might avoid -200 which is what tends to happen when I bid on very light values.

[mycroft]

Two anecdotes, I'm sure not relevant to anything:

 

One partnership played 10-12 1NT NV 1, 2, and 3, and some of our greatest successes came from 3. One or two bad scores, too, but frequently they were -300 into No Game, not the Area Codes people told and tell me would happen All The Time.

 

Another partnership played (and never ever got a chance to bid) 1NT "8-'we don't have game, say 15 or so?'" third seat (with "we are absolutely allowed to decide to pass rather than opening 1NT"). Legal at the time, as All Continuations Were Natural (we had to adjust our defence to double slightly; and I'm sure we would have got a fight from p-1NT; 3♦ "Exactly 4=4=4=1, 10-12 HCP" - it's Natural because it's "4 diamonds, and INV values." But the only hands that would pass and have INV values would be 4441s, and with 4 clubs, we'd almost certainly bid 3♣ instead, so...)

 

In answer to OP question, At the Table, I'd either bid 1NT or pass, playing K/S. The system bites me if I do anything else. It will probably bite me if I do either of those things, as well. But we're not at the table, we're playing "best hand" against robots. So the points are strictly 11-10-10-9 or 11-11-something (or, almost never 11-11-11-7) around the table. In which case, I want to win the partscore. I have both majors (and the serious count help "best hand" gives me if I'm declaring), so it's worth opening. I don't think it much matters what I open here (except 1NT "15-17"), if we have a major fit, we'll find it. So I open; but I'd pass 100% if I didn't have a major (especially, if I didn't have spades) and play for "tie is better than loss".

[thepossum]

I like that many had the option of a 4 card major

 

I had forgotten I posted this. Sorry

 

I think I ended up passing 1Nt after opening a diamond

 

For some reason the pain of not having thought ahead led to me posing the query

 

Correction I found it. Ended up in a bit of a mess. That's why I posted it. Will post the hand later

 

Passing was a good option. A slightly psychy spade worked

 

Most of us ended up in disastrous diamond outcome. Not all

 

EDIT Sorry to take my time developing my case and recollecting. But after opening 1 diamond and opps overcalling 1H, north, with not much, cue bid hearts and I had nowhere to go except a disaster

[thepossum]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat73h8542da92ck6&w=sj96haqjt6dt7ct32&n=sk85h3dkqj63cq854&e=sq42hk97d854caj97&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1d1h2h(support%20diamonds)p2n(why%20am%20I%20here)p3d(ok%20-%20thats%20fine)3hp(great%20we%20can%20defend)p4d(oh%20dear)ppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I appreciate I may have made a few errors along the way but I think a pass was a good option, or even 1D from north

 

A preemptive comment. The specific hand is clearly in the wrong forum and is clearly not Bridge

 

On the brightside I was in the unlucky majority - (EDIT sorry around half) of the field

 

To add to the hilarity two people were so desperate for options they passed the cue bid and one threw in the hand

[Gilithin]

I appreciate I may have made a few errors along the way but I think a pass was a good option, or even 1D from north

I am quite sure that the vast majority of BBF posters would open the North hand 1♦. For quite a few, this would not even be a minimum hand.

[mw64ahw]

I would be happy opening 1♣ or 1♦ depending on partner, but with either auction I still think you have the issue of what to do over 3♥. With the former we pass as we know we have the balance of points, but don't establish the ♦ suit, with the latter it's a close call, but may well end up in 4♦ too.

[AL78]

The North hand looks like a normal 1♦ opening to me, and if South responds 1♥ West is shut out of the auction.

[Evies Dad]

What was 2NT taken to mean ?

[mycroft]

"Oh my, partner raised my Axx suit. We're so doomed, better play in NT. Oh partner thinks I actually have cards, and keeps raising diamonds."

 

Misfits do not play well in NT. It might be the best-scoring place to play, but it's not where you *want* to play a misfit. You do it when you have to. Here, you have a very nice 3♦ "Thanks, partner, heard you, I'm rejecting your invitation"; and the only reason not to take it is because you're embarrassed about your 3-card diamond suit that partner, while he doesn't want you to have, fully knows you might when he supports diamonds.

 

Once again, "once you've announced your hand as X, don't change your mind. The auction will let you know if you have a good X, a poor X, or a 'wish you hadn't X' X. But if you change your mind and say 'I don't actually have X', you have made a mistake. Sure, it might have been your first decision, but it might not."

[thepossum]

2NT (11-13 pts) was a bit of a stretch given the heart situation but struggling for a bid. 3D led to the same 4D (too high) contract

I promised a full (not partial) stop in hearts :)

 

I could have passed the cue bid like a couple of advanced/expert players chose too :)

 

I see a new face here who doesn't realise that trying to patronise me on these forums is not wise

 

The funny thing is that I think one or two managed to make 3NT-1 so not that bad a bid really

 

But the point of the whole thread and why I knew I would regret posting one example hand is that it was about choice of opening bid with said hand

- and as for the thinking ahead when playing with GiB I reckon its a waste of time anyway - wrong forum again

 

Another remarkable thing.I thought I will put the complete hand through one of the world's top bridge programs and it opened 1d north and ended in 3NT I think

 

But thankyou for all the comments. They were encouraging

 

My favourite bid of all (other than pass) was the slightly psychy 1s which one anonymous expert bid.

Don't all reasonable systems allow opening 4-card majors sometimes